318ti.org forum

Go Back   318ti.org forum > Technical, Maintenance and Modifications > Suspension

Notices

Suspension Springs, sway bars, shocks.

.
» Recent Threads
I miss C'ing Ti Pics
07-31-2021 08:08 AM
Last post by b0m
08-02-2021 01:18 AM
3 Replies, 713 Views
1999 318ti w/ M-Sport &...
07-31-2021 08:49 PM
Last post by AlexWJD
07-31-2021 08:49 PM
0 Replies, 233 Views
unfinished supercharged...
06-22-2021 03:57 PM
Last post by Spartan 059
07-31-2021 01:29 PM
6 Replies, 5,931 Views
recommendations for...
07-13-2021 04:48 AM
Last post by BRADESTAR
07-31-2021 08:20 AM
3 Replies, 1,026 Views
'95 Boston Green, ALL...
06-29-2021 04:24 PM
Last post by irdave
07-27-2021 02:21 AM
10 Replies, 3,481 Views
New to the group
05-30-2021 05:47 AM
Last post by FunElan
07-27-2021 12:02 AM
4 Replies, 2,405 Views
What model ti do you own?
02-26-2003 03:40 AM
Last post by sarinasr75
07-26-2021 02:40 PM
340 Replies, 173,139 Views
Longtime lurker via...
07-26-2021 07:33 AM
Last post by primo107
07-26-2021 07:33 AM
0 Replies, 329 Views
Happy Birthday ...
07-26-2021 05:00 AM
Last post by 1996 328ti
07-26-2021 05:00 AM
0 Replies, 333 Views
Reply Share/Bookmark
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-06-2012, 01:36 AM   #1
anassa
Senior Member
 
anassa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 702
Vehicles
iTrader: (1)
Default Making the e46 LCA work on our ti's (e36)! +4deg camber?

I'm going to keep it simple . . . I need to try to find a way to gain back around 4 degrees of camber. Any bit will help of course.

Will having the offset m3 upper shock tower mounts work? (They supposedly give you 3ishdeg of neg camber) Not "supposedly", will the shock be able to bolt up and if I found a offset set and flipped it around?

I know I can use shims but I think they aren't recommended for anything more then 1deg.

What other way - other then buying a camber set, which will only get around 3ish deg - is there? Any creative suspension gurus out there willing to entice the idea?
__________________


***328ti Build thread. ***

Even more important:
SUPPORT 318ti.org! CLICK THE LINK ABOVE!
Hosting a forum like this is not free. 318ti.org is one of the best BMW forums on the web because it is member supported, not vendor supported. The cost to become a Supporter is a nominal $10.00... A YEAR! DO IT! NOW!

Last edited by anassa; 02-16-2013 at 07:28 AM.
anassa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 03:20 AM   #2
pdxmotorhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Portland Or
Posts: 2,666
iTrader: (1)
Default

It would be easier if you told us how it got out of alignment... Did you buy the M3 offset bushings?

Dave
__________________
Dave - PDX
1995 318ti - Active Black and Tan.
2005 330xi - Mtech 1 - 6spd - Orient Blue/Black
pdxmotorhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 03:33 AM   #3
anassa
Senior Member
 
anassa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 702
Vehicles
iTrader: (1)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxmotorhead View Post
It would be easier if you told us how it got out of alignment... Did you buy the M3 offset bushings?

Dave
e46 LCA and yes offset LCA bushings - though I thought the offset bushings only increase caster not camber/toe?
__________________


***328ti Build thread. ***

Even more important:
SUPPORT 318ti.org! CLICK THE LINK ABOVE!
Hosting a forum like this is not free. 318ti.org is one of the best BMW forums on the web because it is member supported, not vendor supported. The cost to become a Supporter is a nominal $10.00... A YEAR! DO IT! NOW!

Last edited by anassa; 09-06-2012 at 04:41 AM.
anassa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 04:34 AM   #4
anassa
Senior Member
 
anassa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 702
Vehicles
iTrader: (1)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxmotorhead View Post
It would be easier if you told us how it got out of alignment... Did you buy the M3 offset bushings?

Dave
Basically I got e46 LCA cheap and for the fun of being different and a challenge I want to get them on and keep within a 2-3 deg camber area.

I have a feeling people may ask why, or why not to just use the normal LCA or its not worth it, whatever, but I am hoping some won't mind just throwing out ideas, or thinking outside the box a bit and maybe come up with something.

I have found quite a bit of information on it, but not anything specific to what I am wondering about it.

So who will indulge me and try to come up with something?


Edit:
Ohhh it seems like someone in a posting today was doing the offset tops facing the wrong way :http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=34102
So if i do the same as him but rotated it one more clock wise as to gain less caster and give me positive camber it will help a bit with balancing out the caster of offset bushings and give me a little more positive camber for the loads of neg camber I have. Pic below:

(Picture is boss23 photo! I am only borrowing it to ask a question)
__________________


***328ti Build thread. ***

Even more important:
SUPPORT 318ti.org! CLICK THE LINK ABOVE!
Hosting a forum like this is not free. 318ti.org is one of the best BMW forums on the web because it is member supported, not vendor supported. The cost to become a Supporter is a nominal $10.00... A YEAR! DO IT! NOW!

Last edited by anassa; 09-06-2012 at 04:46 AM.
anassa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 05:16 AM   #5
pdxmotorhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Portland Or
Posts: 2,666
iTrader: (1)
Default

http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Ca...pension+design

Others have gone before you... At the end of the day you can work really hard and spend a lot of money to get less than you started with. The setup I'm picturing that you describe is likely to not have the anti dive in the E36 chassis that you want (It may remember I'm speculating based on little data.) and take a look at the ackerman of what youve done. Kudos for experimenting, new stuff comes from there...

As a benchmark, I've heard that the E46 chassis had > $90,000,000 in finite element analysis done to make the tub work in tandem with the suspension and tire package. (Of course they likely used the data for the whole car line... )


If I were going as far out as you are I'd cut the top off the strut towers and tube them with the camber and caster I wanted.

Dave
__________________
Dave - PDX
1995 318ti - Active Black and Tan.
2005 330xi - Mtech 1 - 6spd - Orient Blue/Black
pdxmotorhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 06:10 AM   #6
cooljess76
NOBODY F's with the Jesus
 
cooljess76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ventura California
Posts: 7,825
iTrader: (6)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxmotorhead View Post

If I were going as far out as you are I'd cut the top off the strut towers and tube them with the camber and caster I wanted.

Dave
+1, Exactly what I was getting ready to suggest.


blndweasel did just that to his car as a repair for a torn strut tower. Here's his for sale thread, it has a couple pics. IIRC, he has a thread dedicated to this project, I'll look for it.
http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=37029

Found it: http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=30693

Last edited by cooljess76; 09-06-2012 at 06:15 AM.
cooljess76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 10:58 AM   #7
anassa
Senior Member
 
anassa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 702
Vehicles
iTrader: (1)
Default

man you guys are busting my balls here ...

@ pdxmotorhead - what your talking about is a whole different level of knowledge and understanding of suspension. I am trying to keep it simple, with a possible mod for those who want to! I am not implying that I am revising the suspension in a way that is better then what BMW head built in the first place, as it is most people will never have the driving skill to max out the suspension geometry of what it already has.
Besides I think your still trying to answer the "why" question when I am trying to find out "how" - in the simplest way possible.
I am trying to keep it at a level for any guy on the street to be able to do, and most people can replace parts, but welding is a completely different level.

@cooljess76 thanks for the link - I have seen it before and it does look interesting, he does seem to do a extraordinary job. If I was actually serious with measuring out exact lengths and have specifics for the suspension geometry that I was shooting for in a track car or something then it seems more plausible to do something like this.

For simplicity sake lets just say my goal is: "coolness". Wouldn't it be "cool" if there was a mod that would lower your unsprung weight, get a increase in lock, give you some more track width and a acceptable amount of camber, for a good look and seemingly a bit of a upgrade to the suspension, depending on use? So lets say that I find out that the combination of e46 LCA with offset upper shock tower mount, and with __________ it can result in the aboved mentioned things. Would that not be worth knowing as a option for those interested? I think it would be "cool" to know what can be mixed and matched to work. I don't care how you use it, thats up to the reader, I just want to know will it work, and then how?

Example is like our brakes, I believe (would need to double check) that the e34 rear caliper will bolt right in and give you more brake power in the rear that may help offset brake bias for those who have upgraded to front vents. <- that is cool to know! I don't need a few hundred page book on how brakes work to be able to want/use this mod - sure BMW probably spent millions on developing the brakes for the e36 and 318ti, so?? The E34 mod seems simple and effective and it came through people who have a certain application in mind and just try using different parts because they think it may work and then trying it to fit what they want.

SOOO: keep it simple in the way of doing things most people have access to. Including me lol, I'm not going to be able to weld something like that, .

Maybe it will help in addressing what I know so far. Heres is a few threads of those who have done it, purpose, how, and outcome:
http://www.driftworks.com/forum/tech...ry-photos.html
http://www.trampdrift.com/Forum/TD/showthread.php?

Those are nice to know and good, but I'm trying to make it more of a street application. It is nice to find out that I can get a few degrees back with the offset shock tower mount.

After all this I'm going back to the original question (other then extensive welding) what are some other ways to gain back some of that camber?

(phew sorry that was long winded)
__________________


***328ti Build thread. ***

Even more important:
SUPPORT 318ti.org! CLICK THE LINK ABOVE!
Hosting a forum like this is not free. 318ti.org is one of the best BMW forums on the web because it is member supported, not vendor supported. The cost to become a Supporter is a nominal $10.00... A YEAR! DO IT! NOW!
anassa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 12:20 PM   #8
spidertri
Senior Member
 
spidertri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Elizabeth City, NC
Posts: 3,877
Vehicles
iTrader: (9)
Default

You don't rotate the M strut mounts. You can either put them on the correct sides with the arrow pointing forward or swap them from side to side with the arrow still pointing forward.

Also, they alone didn't give me -3.3deg camber. From lowering my car I already had around -2deg.
__________________
~Dave~

98 328ti Morea Grun slicktop
11 128i space gray slicktop
13 JGC WK2 Deep Cherry

Search | RealOEM
spidertri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 01:28 AM   #9
pdxmotorhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Portland Or
Posts: 2,666
iTrader: (1)
Default

I wasn't trying to bust your game, maybe what I should have said,,, is What is the alignment spec you want,,, then pick the parts. "more camber" or " more caster" is not very specific and since I tune a lot of suspension that's where I start. I recommend that book because it explains dive, ackerman and the basics of how the suspension works, so you can pick the best off the shelf parts to get as close to ideal for your suspension height and geometry.

I've done cars for folks that had no idea what good suspension was, I even did a 18' winnebago once. The guy loved it. Mostly it was good shocks and springs that were matched to the vehicles weight, and tuning the suspension angles to correctly control the top heavy beasty.. The guy had a 550HP 454 chevy in it for going to Baja to chase the rally cars. I even found a way to make adjustable sway bars for him.. They were BIG...

I believe in pre-planing I'm too old to mess with stuff more than once... LOL

Like I said keep us up on the final parts you end up with and the alignment that it works out to...

Cheers
Dave
__________________
Dave - PDX
1995 318ti - Active Black and Tan.
2005 330xi - Mtech 1 - 6spd - Orient Blue/Black
pdxmotorhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 05:37 AM   #10
anassa
Senior Member
 
anassa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 702
Vehicles
iTrader: (1)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidertri View Post
You don't rotate the M strut mounts. You can either put them on the correct sides with the arrow pointing forward or swap them from side to side with the arrow still pointing forward.

Also, they alone didn't give me -3.3deg camber. From lowering my car I already had around -2deg.
Does the strut not fit if I would rotate it? Does it physically not work or just not recommended? My guesstimated specs where off, but still +2deg (Oh I mean 1.3deg?) is still a step in the right direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxmotorhead View Post
I wasn't trying to bust your game, maybe what I should have said,,, is What is the alignment spec you want,,, then pick the parts. "more camber" or " more caster" is not very specific and since I tune a lot of suspension that's where I start. I recommend that book because it explains dive, ackerman and the basics of how the suspension works, so you can pick the best off the shelf parts to get as close to ideal for your suspension height and geometry.

I've done cars for folks that had no idea what good suspension was, I even did a 18' winnebago once. The guy loved it. Mostly it was good shocks and springs that were matched to the vehicles weight, and tuning the suspension angles to correctly control the top heavy beasty.. The guy had a 550HP 454 chevy in it for going to Baja to chase the rally cars. I even found a way to make adjustable sway bars for him.. They were BIG...

I believe in pre-planing I'm too old to mess with stuff more than once... LOL

Like I said keep us up on the final parts you end up with and the alignment that it works out to...

Cheers
Dave
Well thanks for your help, I guess knowing your qualifications a little more does kinda help understand your point of view.

I am hardly a suspension expert, I was just playing around with parts - with a goal mostly of "does it work", streetable, just doing it to learn and see how the car feels with the different suspension. Mostly on feel then actual calculations I guess.

I am hoping, 0 toe, 2.2-3.0 max camber, and with caster I just guessed that with the e46 LCA and offset bushing it may give me a little too much, I don't mind a bit extra (havn't looked too much into numbers - again just eyeballing and seeing how it will feel) because from the little I know it does seem to help handling but of course too much also is not good.

The other hope was to find out how it works, do it myself, and write up how it felt for me and how it looks/ behaves so that others can also mess with it without having to break the wallet or get stuff crazy welded. Its real common coming from the honda/nissan world to mix and OEM parts from different models to get a setup that suits the persons driving style or look for the car. Just because so much is interchangeable and cheaper then after market options that may do the same thing. Besides different ideas are fun to play with.

But back on point, if I did put the offset shocktower mounts in the same place as the other thread that gained him more camber, but as spidertri said it also gives him more caster - now I am assuming with the offset m3 mounts and e46 LCA it will be wayy to much caster to be streetable.

Now becaues the offset LCA bushings are offset could I rotate them to loose caster?

For example - I put the upper shock tower mounts like the previously mentioned thread http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=34102 - and rotate my offset LCA bushings in a attempt to compensate for the caster gained by the upper shock tower mounts to minimize it, then use IE street camber kit : http://www.iemotorsport.com/bmw/E36-...adjcamber.html to gain another 1.25 deg of camber ontop of the of the 2deg camber, and maybe with a 1deg shim somewhere I can get a total of 4.25 camber back?

I do now kinda wish I had numbers for the caster gained with the E46LCA and offset LCA bushing and upper offset shock tower mount, just to make sure it would be in a operable range.

I feel there is hope?? Now please take a look my hypothesis, and see where the holes are! lol, it almost feels like a science experiment.
__________________


***328ti Build thread. ***

Even more important:
SUPPORT 318ti.org! CLICK THE LINK ABOVE!
Hosting a forum like this is not free. 318ti.org is one of the best BMW forums on the web because it is member supported, not vendor supported. The cost to become a Supporter is a nominal $10.00... A YEAR! DO IT! NOW!

Last edited by anassa; 09-14-2012 at 04:47 PM. Reason: stuff!
anassa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2012, 04:54 PM   #11
anassa
Senior Member
 
anassa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 702
Vehicles
iTrader: (1)
Default

No one have reflections on my last post?

Anyway, I am slowly moving forward, I just got a alignment done, the alignment specs are given with the car on 16x7wheels 225/50/16tires, front are koni m3 coilovers with eibach 375lb springs, and there is a one finger gap, rear is e30 bilstien shocks with z3m springs. (I am trying to including other information just incase someone finds it useable or applicable.)

Caster: Left 3.0 Right 3.0
Camber: Left -2.3 Right -1.9
Toe: Left 20 Right 20 (Toe in, I decided against 0 toe for now)
(All #'s in degrees)

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidertri View Post
With swapped M hats, I have -3.3deg camber and 6.0deg caster on each side.
Seems like the M hats give around 3deg of caster too, ontop of whatever the amount would be given by the offset bushings, so maybe with it inverted to add caster it may even out the caster I get from the E46LCA and m hats.

Still need to find some used offset M hats though.

I will keep this thread updated with my progress.

For all I know I will get it all on, find out its completely worthless and switch it back, oh well, that part of the learning process, and since I have been using parts sourced from bimmerforums and craigslist its still pretty cheap.
__________________


***328ti Build thread. ***

Even more important:
SUPPORT 318ti.org! CLICK THE LINK ABOVE!
Hosting a forum like this is not free. 318ti.org is one of the best BMW forums on the web because it is member supported, not vendor supported. The cost to become a Supporter is a nominal $10.00... A YEAR! DO IT! NOW!
anassa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2012, 06:56 PM   #12
AutoM3otives
Senior Member
 
AutoM3otives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: SoCal
Posts: 549
iTrader: (0)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anassa View Post
Still need to find some used offset M hats though.
Finished a coilover install on my M Coupe last night, just posted these up this morning, hit me up.
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv...270851165.html
__________________
318Ti Sport (Gone, but thanks for your years of service) | M3 E30 | 190E-16V | M Coupe E36/8
AutoM3otives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2012, 05:59 AM   #13
anassa
Senior Member
 
anassa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 702
Vehicles
iTrader: (1)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoM3otives View Post
Finished a coilover install on my M Coupe last night, just posted these up this morning, hit me up.
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv...270851165.html
Thanks AutoM3otives - it was nice to meet you and chat a bit!

Well I just realized something very basic that makes getting street worthy camber even harder. I might be able to make it if I started out with 0 camber, but I am starting already with 2.3 and 1.9deg camber on both sides which will go ontop of the 7ish deg I am going to get.

Its too much neg camber to make up!!!! crap.

I think this idea/project with go into hibernation for a while....
__________________


***328ti Build thread. ***

Even more important:
SUPPORT 318ti.org! CLICK THE LINK ABOVE!
Hosting a forum like this is not free. 318ti.org is one of the best BMW forums on the web because it is member supported, not vendor supported. The cost to become a Supporter is a nominal $10.00... A YEAR! DO IT! NOW!
anassa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 01:23 AM   #14
anassa
Senior Member
 
anassa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 702
Vehicles
iTrader: (1)
Default

Another problem that came up with is the Aluminum e46 LCAs don't have mounting for the say bar, so I would need to swap out to a m3 sway bar.

Anyways a Update!

I got the parts to do it.

The solid 95m3 offset LCA bushing is installed (kinda wish i had a non offset pair though, but I got it and I can't afford to just go out and buy a new set yet). I found a m3 sway bar and almost new endlinks for 70, installed that, got a set of TRM camber plates from someones coilover setup, it seems to give a good amount of camber, if its enough I will find out lol.

Finally I got all the parts needed to put it on. No guarantee that it will have streetable camber, and that it will be better then stock or even equal, but oh well.

Last thing I need is the time to sit down and do it! I will update accordingly when I get some results.

Wish me luck!
__________________


***328ti Build thread. ***

Even more important:
SUPPORT 318ti.org! CLICK THE LINK ABOVE!
Hosting a forum like this is not free. 318ti.org is one of the best BMW forums on the web because it is member supported, not vendor supported. The cost to become a Supporter is a nominal $10.00... A YEAR! DO IT! NOW!

Last edited by anassa; 11-12-2012 at 01:25 AM.
anassa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2012, 01:28 AM   #15
anassa
Senior Member
 
anassa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 702
Vehicles
iTrader: (1)
Default

Update!!

Done.

The camber plates I found didn't work but the offset mhats worked just like I wanted.
So I still need a alignment but here are a few pics of the outcome.
Once I get the alignment I can post up actual camber/caster/toe numbers.
**sorry for the bad quality pics**

M Hat rotated for max positive camber, and some less caster:

Right Side:

Left Side:

Middle pic:

e46LCA installed:



Side by side of e46 and non M e36 LCA - really bad quality, sorry!


You will also notice that I have the m3 front sway bar so the end links don't bolt to the LCA but to the Shock tower.

Well there it is, I found also I need new tie rods up front.

But I'm happy that it seems workable at the moment!

Feedback appreciated.
__________________


***328ti Build thread. ***

Even more important:
SUPPORT 318ti.org! CLICK THE LINK ABOVE!
Hosting a forum like this is not free. 318ti.org is one of the best BMW forums on the web because it is member supported, not vendor supported. The cost to become a Supporter is a nominal $10.00... A YEAR! DO IT! NOW!
anassa is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Budget Friendly Camber Adjustment Parts? mamba Suspension 7 10-14-2014 06:07 PM
Camber Kit 318_IT Suspension 4 08-29-2011 02:43 PM
Rear Camber Adjustments losichu Suspension 11 06-27-2007 02:47 AM
Positive camber! shaggy318ti Suspension 1 08-08-2006 08:34 PM
HOW TO: Camber Correction Methods for Lowered TIs cali-ti Knowledge Base 0 01-22-2006 12:42 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:45 AM.


.
Powered by site supporters
vBulletin Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2021, 318ti.org
© vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2
[page compression: 158.30 k/184.73 k (14.31%)]

318ti.org does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information or products discussed.