Making the e46 LCA work on our ti's (e36)! +4deg camber? I'm going to keep it simple . . . I need to try to find a way to gain back around 4 degrees of camber. Any bit will help of course. Will having the offset m3 upper shock tower mounts work? (They supposedly give you 3ishdeg of neg camber) Not "supposedly", will the shock be able to bolt up and if I found a offset set and flipped it around? I know I can use shims but I think they aren't recommended for anything more then 1deg. What other way - other then buying a camber set, which will only get around 3ish deg - is there? Any creative suspension gurus out there willing to entice the idea? |
It would be easier if you told us how it got out of alignment... Did you buy the M3 offset bushings? Dave |
Quote:
|
Quote:
I have a feeling people may ask why, or why not to just use the normal LCA or its not worth it, whatever, but I am hoping some won't mind just throwing out ideas, or thinking outside the box a bit and maybe come up with something. I have found quite a bit of information on it, but not anything specific to what I am wondering about it. So who will indulge me and try to come up with something? Edit: Ohhh it seems like someone in a posting today was doing the offset tops facing the wrong way :http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=34102 So if i do the same as him but rotated it one more clock wise as to gain less caster and give me positive camber it will help a bit with balancing out the caster of offset bushings and give me a little more positive camber for the loads of neg camber I have. Pic below: http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...rm3mounts1.jpg (Picture is boss23 photo! I am only borrowing it to ask a question) |
http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Ca...pension+design Others have gone before you... :) At the end of the day you can work really hard and spend a lot of money to get less than you started with. The setup I'm picturing that you describe is likely to not have the anti dive in the E36 chassis that you want (It may remember I'm speculating based on little data.) and take a look at the ackerman of what youve done. Kudos for experimenting, new stuff comes from there... As a benchmark, I've heard that the E46 chassis had > $90,000,000 in finite element analysis done to make the tub work in tandem with the suspension and tire package. (Of course they likely used the data for the whole car line... ) If I were going as far out as you are I'd cut the top off the strut towers and tube them with the camber and caster I wanted. Dave |
Quote:
blndweasel did just that to his car as a repair for a torn strut tower. Here's his for sale thread, it has a couple pics. IIRC, he has a thread dedicated to this project, I'll look for it. http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=37029 Found it: http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=30693 |
man you guys are busting my balls here ... @ pdxmotorhead - what your talking about is a whole different level of knowledge and understanding of suspension. I am trying to keep it simple, with a possible mod for those who want to! I am not implying that I am revising the suspension in a way that is better then what BMW head built in the first place, as it is most people will never have the driving skill to max out the suspension geometry of what it already has. Besides I think your still trying to answer the "why" question when I am trying to find out "how" - in the simplest way possible. I am trying to keep it at a level for any guy on the street to be able to do, and most people can replace parts, but welding is a completely different level. @cooljess76 thanks for the link - I have seen it before and it does look interesting, he does seem to do a extraordinary job. If I was actually serious with measuring out exact lengths and have specifics for the suspension geometry that I was shooting for in a track car or something then it seems more plausible to do something like this. For simplicity sake lets just say my goal is: "coolness". Wouldn't it be "cool" if there was a mod that would lower your unsprung weight, get a increase in lock, give you some more track width and a acceptable amount of camber, for a good look and seemingly a bit of a upgrade to the suspension, depending on use? So lets say that I find out that the combination of e46 LCA with offset upper shock tower mount, and with __________ it can result in the aboved mentioned things. Would that not be worth knowing as a option for those interested? I think it would be "cool" to know what can be mixed and matched to work. I don't care how you use it, thats up to the reader, I just want to know will it work, and then how? Example is like our brakes, I believe (would need to double check) that the e34 rear caliper will bolt right in and give you more brake power in the rear that may help offset brake bias for those who have upgraded to front vents. <- that is cool to know! I don't need a few hundred page book on how brakes work to be able to want/use this mod - sure BMW probably spent millions on developing the brakes for the e36 and 318ti, so?? The E34 mod seems simple and effective and it came through people who have a certain application in mind and just try using different parts because they think it may work and then trying it to fit what they want. SOOO: keep it simple in the way of doing things most people have access to. Including me lol, I'm not going to be able to weld something like that, :eek:. Maybe it will help in addressing what I know so far. Heres is a few threads of those who have done it, purpose, how, and outcome: http://www.driftworks.com/forum/tech...ry-photos.html http://www.trampdrift.com/Forum/TD/showthread.php? Those are nice to know and good, but I'm trying to make it more of a street application. It is nice to find out that I can get a few degrees back with the offset shock tower mount. After all this I'm going back to the original question (other then extensive welding) what are some other ways to gain back some of that camber? (phew sorry that was long winded) |
You don't rotate the M strut mounts. You can either put them on the correct sides with the arrow pointing forward or swap them from side to side with the arrow still pointing forward. Also, they alone didn't give me -3.3deg camber. From lowering my car I already had around -2deg. |
I wasn't trying to bust your game, maybe what I should have said,,, is What is the alignment spec you want,,, then pick the parts. "more camber" or " more caster" is not very specific and since I tune a lot of suspension that's where I start. I recommend that book because it explains dive, ackerman and the basics of how the suspension works, so you can pick the best off the shelf parts to get as close to ideal for your suspension height and geometry. I've done cars for folks that had no idea what good suspension was, I even did a 18' winnebago once. The guy loved it. Mostly it was good shocks and springs that were matched to the vehicles weight, and tuning the suspension angles to correctly control the top heavy beasty.. The guy had a 550HP 454 chevy in it for going to Baja to chase the rally cars. I even found a way to make adjustable sway bars for him.. They were BIG... I believe in pre-planing I'm too old to mess with stuff more than once... LOL Like I said keep us up on the final parts you end up with and the alignment that it works out to... Cheers Dave |
Quote:
Quote:
I am hardly a suspension expert, I was just playing around with parts - with a goal mostly of "does it work", streetable, just doing it to learn and see how the car feels with the different suspension. Mostly on feel then actual calculations I guess. I am hoping, 0 toe, 2.2-3.0 max camber, and with caster I just guessed that with the e46 LCA and offset bushing it may give me a little too much, I don't mind a bit extra (havn't looked too much into numbers - again just eyeballing and seeing how it will feel) because from the little I know it does seem to help handling but of course too much also is not good. The other hope was to find out how it works, do it myself, and write up how it felt for me and how it looks/ behaves so that others can also mess with it without having to break the wallet or get stuff crazy welded. Its real common coming from the honda/nissan world to mix and OEM parts from different models to get a setup that suits the persons driving style or look for the car. Just because so much is interchangeable and cheaper then after market options that may do the same thing. Besides different ideas are fun to play with. But back on point, if I did put the offset shocktower mounts in the same place as the other thread that gained him more camber, but as spidertri said it also gives him more caster - now I am assuming with the offset m3 mounts and e46 LCA it will be wayy to much caster to be streetable. Now becaues the offset LCA bushings are offset could I rotate them to loose caster? For example - I put the upper shock tower mounts like the previously mentioned thread http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=34102 - and rotate my offset LCA bushings in a attempt to compensate for the caster gained by the upper shock tower mounts to minimize it, then use IE street camber kit : http://www.iemotorsport.com/bmw/E36-...adjcamber.html to gain another 1.25 deg of camber ontop of the of the 2deg camber, and maybe with a 1deg shim somewhere I can get a total of 4.25 camber back? I do now kinda wish I had numbers for the caster gained with the E46LCA and offset LCA bushing and upper offset shock tower mount, just to make sure it would be in a operable range. I feel there is hope?? Now please take a look my hypothesis, and see where the holes are! lol, it almost feels like a science experiment. |
No one have reflections on my last post? Anyway, I am slowly moving forward, I just got a alignment done, the alignment specs are given with the car on 16x7wheels 225/50/16tires, front are koni m3 coilovers with eibach 375lb springs, and there is a one finger gap, rear is e30 bilstien shocks with z3m springs. (I am trying to including other information just incase someone finds it useable or applicable.) Caster: Left 3.0 Right 3.0 Camber: Left -2.3 Right -1.9 Toe: Left 20 Right 20 (Toe in, I decided against 0 toe for now) (All #'s in degrees) Quote:
Still need to find some used offset M hats though. I will keep this thread updated with my progress. For all I know I will get it all on, find out its completely worthless and switch it back, oh well, that part of the learning process, and since I have been using parts sourced from bimmerforums and craigslist its still pretty cheap. |
Quote:
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv...270851165.html |
Quote:
Well I just realized something very basic that makes getting street worthy camber even harder. I might be able to make it if I started out with 0 camber, but I am starting already with 2.3 and 1.9deg camber on both sides which will go ontop of the 7ish deg I am going to get. Its too much neg camber to make up!!!! crap. :mad: I think this idea/project with go into hibernation for a while.... |
Another problem that came up with is the Aluminum e46 LCAs don't have mounting for the say bar, so I would need to swap out to a m3 sway bar. Anyways a Update! I got the parts to do it. :cool: The solid 95m3 offset LCA bushing is installed (kinda wish i had a non offset pair though, but I got it and I can't afford to just go out and buy a new set yet). I found a m3 sway bar and almost new endlinks for 70, installed that, got a set of TRM camber plates from someones coilover setup, it seems to give a good amount of camber, if its enough I will find out lol. Finally I got all the parts needed to put it on. No guarantee that it will have streetable camber, and that it will be better then stock or even equal, but oh well. Last thing I need is the time to sit down and do it! I will update accordingly when I get some results. Wish me luck! |
Update!! Done. :biggrin: The camber plates I found didn't work but the offset mhats worked just like I wanted. So I still need a alignment but here are a few pics of the outcome. Once I get the alignment I can post up actual camber/caster/toe numbers. **sorry for the bad quality pics** M Hat rotated for max positive camber, and some less caster: http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...pse52bb4e8.jpg Right Side: http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...psb6ee737d.jpg Left Side: http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps6e8cc54f.jpg Middle pic: http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps61d9a71c.jpg e46LCA installed: http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps7cd7941f.jpg http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps9b0479a4.jpg Side by side of e46 and non M e36 LCA - really bad quality, sorry! http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps8b86e66e.jpg You will also notice that I have the m3 front sway bar so the end links don't bolt to the LCA but to the Shock tower. Well there it is, I found also I need new tie rods up front. But I'm happy that it seems workable at the moment! Feedback appreciated. :wink: |
That's a beefy CA... These are compatible? |
Quote:
They will give you excessive neg camber without any correction, the ends that go into the LCA bushing is hexagonal, so they need to be grind ed down to fit regular e36 LCA's or tree house racing has, or had at least, hexagonal bushings that will fit into the regular e36 lollipops, then it will fit, but I'm not sure if they push far enough up on the CA. The ones I put on where ground down to fit. Pros: They are aluminum and are 2lbish lighter (estimated with bathroom scale) regular non M e36 LCA at around 9lbs and the E46 ones at 7lbs. (The bathroom scale isnt the most accurate thing, so estimated!) Give more width, and lock (?) and thats about it. Links for more info: http://www.driftworks.com/forum/tech...ry-photos.html |
So some more info on the E46 LCA swap, below is a pic of of all the parts used with my E46 LCA swap. Driver Side: http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...psa751bc01.jpg This is just my setup, so others can maybe find a better mix and match, depending on use. Also the red two vertical red marks with the horizontal line shows how much I had to adjust the tie road to counter the toe in, from the stock setting! As you can see it had to go out far, and this is just for drivable toe. Its about the max, and NOT recommended, it still has too much toe in. **Also its just off the top of my head but it seems that 99/00 e46 LCA are preferred, not sure why, not confirmed! But just saying anyways. I have not gotten a actual alignment for final specs as i need to get longer inner tie rods. Once all is in place and I am happy with my self measured toe I will bring it to a shop to get numbers for you gentlemen Close up on Passenger side of offset M Hat rotated for max positive camber. (Same idea as I had before when showing boss23 picture, it works!) http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps8e25ca66.jpg QUESTION: Does anyone know what the difference of length is between e36 inners vs e46 and e90 ? e90 inners seems too long, it needs to be cut down so toe won't be too far out, and e36 inners are not long enough to be safe, I don't know if the e46 length is somewhere in between. Edit: When I ever get a chance I'll try to get all the info on one post - to keep the info easy to find. |
So I replaced the inner tierod ends and put 4mm of washers with some locktight on the end the tierod, now I have enough tie rod length to match the e46 control arms! I just did my own measuring with the toe so that it would be good enough for the road - I am roughly at 0 deg of toe, maybe a bit toe out. (So I am using regular e36 inner and outer tierods with "spacers" on the inside of the tie rod) Drives fine so far! Final alignment with camber,caster, and toe numbers will come eventually! |
You know... E30 M3 aluminum arms bolt right up. |
Quote:
:tongue: But I think those are pretty expensive(??), e46 ones are pretty easy/cheap to source. |
Quote:
E46 arms can be much cheaper but by the time you are done with everything else you need E30 M3 arms might be cheaper, much cheaper. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Also... all E46 arms are not the same. E46 M3 have arms all their own and E46 non-M arms differ from non sport to sport. The E30 M3 arms are not cheap at all. They list for 400.00 each but you can get them cheaper through me ;) The E30 M3 arms do have a place to bolt the sway bar link bracket. That said bolting the sway bar to an aluminum control arm is not my favorite idea but I have seen it done before (on a race car) so I know it works. |
Quote:
It does seem that using the e30m3 LCA's would be simpler, but i also do like using the sway bar that bolts to the strut, with it being more effective and also saves like - a couple lbs? Your right that I am not done adjusting, I need to get a real alignment still, also I forgot to mention that the biggest problem is the excessive neg camber. I picked up the idea from the european drift forms that wanted extra lock and track with for their drifting, so it is out of place on a mostly stock, street driven ti (like mine!). And as for rear track width, spacers in the rear?? Untill now I picked up the LCAs and LCAbushing with new lolipop for 200, then the m3 sway bar and end links for 70, and I think 60? for the offset Mhats which were desperately needed to get into drivable camber. So 330 plus whatever it cost for the washers that I put in the inner tie rods to give me enough play for dialing in regular toe. Mostly it was just experimenting to see if it could turn out actually useful. |
Quote:
M3 links are more than double the size of standard E36 links so you actually add weight with the M3 links. If you ran the thinner 23mm M3 front sway bar you would save some weight there but by using the stock ti bar with M3 links you are actually adding more front sway bar. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Thanks for all the feedback up till now! |
Good thought with the Z3 non-M 6 cyl rear trailing arms... I had not thought of that. You will however still have to deal with the fenders. These cars actually need more rear bar than front until you start getting very stiff with the suspension... then you can actually get rid of the rear bar all together (that saves some weight). Look at Dinan sway bar diameters. 27mm front and 22mm rear, stock sport front is 26 rear is 16 if I remember right. There is a reason. |
Quote:
As for the fenders, I have seen ppl use the e46 front fenders grafted on, but I was just thinking buying some simple flairs and putting them on - not any time soon of course - I'll probably keep to smaller tires/wheels untill I am happy with my suspenstion/brakes misc things and finally add more power then the wider tires and bigger wheels will come into play. |
Ive installed e46 m3 front complete suspension on the ti. It widens the stance substantially. It requires e46 m3 outs, e90 inners, m3 lcabs or AKG bushings installed in the e36 lollipop, and whatever strut mount youre going to use, usually one with camber and caster adjustment. In the end, its not worth it. You can widen the stance in other ways, reduce weight with e30 m3 aluminum arms, and others. http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v...n/9b5ed8b2.jpg http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v...n/90336c52.jpg http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/v...h_14152009.jpg |
It works!!! @ Bluebimma hmm that sucks you had a bad experience. Finally got a good alignment below is a picture of the result! http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps89344f4b.jpg Pictures of the resulting "stance" http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...psb37c0c0f.jpg Left side: http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps7b4becee.jpg Right Side: http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...psaff1eacf.jpg To compare before and after numbers: Before: Caster: Left 3.0 Right 3.0 Camber: Left -2.3 Right -1.9 After: Caster: Left 4.1 Right 4.0 Camber: Left -2.5 Right -1.5 Give or take ~.2deg for camber, as mentioned before I do have the problem of having one strut up front that has the welded bracket, resulting in different amount of camber for the driver (left) side. BUT, since the goal was to have streetable camber with the aluminum e46 LCA's I have succeeded. Overall the Camber stayed about the same with a increase in the Caster. Mind you as you can see in the pictures the wheel is basically flush with the fender, and that is with 16x7 ET 47 wheels and tire is 205/55/16, so there is not much room for larger wheels without getting those fenders wider. Also at full lock the tie rod end will rub if the wheel was 15", with my 16" it clears all around perfectly. Parts used: - E36 inners and outers with 1mm washers x 4 on inners acting as spacers. (plenty of room for adjustment) - Solid Offset M3 LCA bushing - z3m coupe/roadster Offset M hats - non-M e46 LCA (Looks like this=>): http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps7a64e33f.jpg I still want to play with putting on centered LCA bushing, or just finding a hexagonal one that will fit in the E36 lollipop etc etc, but right now what I got works and I couldn't be happier. Oh and final cost= $200 for e46LCA with e36 LCA offset bushing/lollipop (bought from bimmerforums member) $81 (+ tax) for both sides new tie rods inner/outer - from Ireland Engineering $50 for Offset z3m coupe hats (picked up from 318ti member) Total: $331 Not bad considering that wont even buy one e30 aluminum LCA. EDIT/UPDATE!!: Its been 2~3 years?? And it seems like the e46 LCA mod is common enough that Condor Speed shop made a easy bolt in kit. https://www.condorspeedshop.com/prod...rsion-bushings |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:35 AM. |
vBulletin Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2024, 318ti.org