Keyless Engine Start

[Junk]

Cooljess: thanks for the scan and all, but in all fairness, the first couple links I only explain that it is bad for the environment and un-necessary, car is more easily stolen, etc. etc.. NOTHING that actually says it's bad for the engine .. maybe for the cats, but I think that was more the day of the carb.. and I haven't checked the other links yet, but thanks for the legwork. The BMW manual also does NOT explain WHY it's not recommended..And I have no desire to prove you wrong on something that I myself don't know. I'm merely supposing, so that we could understand why.

Hotmilk:maybe jcwhitney for block heater?

Johnboy, good explain there (I vote johnboy tech guru!), though I'm left wondering which parts need lube (timing chain should be fine going into an oil bath, cams get lube (don't they?) and pistons have oil squirters if you lucky. what else is there? I was surprised at the wear on my crank at the rear main seal.. little groove in there at 117k miles..

I don't need to know or I'd be searching the net to find out, but you come out and say it's bad and I just ask why? No biggy right? "somebody said so" just usually not good enough for me.. cept mebbe for johnboy

If it just needs varying revs for oil splash, conceivably better to free-rev the motor (lightly)? (I know you won't get the g-force sloshing then)

[cooljess76]

Originally Posted by Junk

Cooljess: thanks for the scan and all, but in all fairness, the first couple links I only explain that it is bad for the environment and un-necessary, car is more easily stolen, etc. etc.. NOTHING that actually says it's bad for the engine .. maybe for the cats, but I think that was more the day of the carb.. and I haven't checked the other links yet, but thanks for the legwork. The BMW manual also does NOT explain WHY it's not recommended..And I have no desire to prove you wrong on something that I myself don't know. I'm merely supposing, so that we could understand why.

FFS c'mon man...

Originally Posted by First link

"Idling hurts the car
According to the Hinkle Charitable Foundation's Anti-Idling Primer, idling forces an engine "to operate in a very inefficient and gasoline-rich mode that, over time, can degrade the engine's performance and reduce mileage."

The Campaign for an Idle-Free New York City points out that idling causes carbon residues to build up inside the engine, which reduces its efficiency."

Second link was about theft.

Originally Posted by Third link

"Forcing an engine to idle -- an inefficient, gasoline-rich mode -- also wastes gas over time, and hurts performance and mileage."

3 Youtube videos, Links to news articles, Numerous statements from knowledgeable & respectable forum members, Quote from the BMW owner's manual... What more could you possibly want?

Yes, it's bad for the environment.

Yes, it wastes fuel.

Yes, it's bad for your engine.

Yes, your car can get stolen.

Yes, it's illegal in some states.

Yes, hacking up your wiring harness and tricking the EWS is risky and ghetto.

The BMW 3 Series Owner's Manual doesn't explain WHY you shouldn't do burnouts while you're sitting in traffic. It doesn't explain WHY you should use unleaded fuel vs. deisel either. Does it really need to though? Did you even read the articles? I mean I can read them to you out loud, but I can't make you interpret things if you have selective hearing.

ACTUALLY READ the articles. WATCH AND LISTEN to the videos. I went through all that hassle to post sources of info and basically you read the first paragraph, didn't find your answer and gave up. For crying out loud, READ MY FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD if you want an answer. When an engine runs cold or at idle, it runs rich. The longer it runs rich, the more gunk and carbon deposits build up. The more carbon deposits that build up, the poorer it's going to perform, the more fuel it's going to waste, the more wear it's going to put on the engine. Starting it up and driving it HELPS IT REACH OPERATING TEMPERATURE QUICKER. And no, free-reving your engine is NOT a good alternative. You'll find that that's just as bad IF NOT WORSE. It needs to be under load.

[Junk]

How does wasting fuel necessarily mean it's building up gunk? If it does gunk up, how much of that is still there after the first moderate throttle? I think they mean it wastes fuel because you're not moving. Yes it runs rich when cold, it will run rich when you drive off cold too. OK it will heat up faster when you drive off. You say it's BAD.. OK it's bad. I was wrong cold idling is very bad, 1 year, 30% more wear, runs rich, etcetc. You're telling me this means something, I'm telling you it doesn't.(by itself) I'm not saying you're wrong..

THe BMW manual doesn't tell me why it's bad, I didn't expect it to and I didn't scan the BMW manual. What's FFS?

I'm sorry if I missed some points, but like I said the first two (make that three)articles didn't say much in the way I was looking for (detrimental effects ON THE MOTOR of idling a cold engine vs. driving off right away) so I quit lookin, You still haven't told me what wore out on the patrol cars.

Just did a quick search.. all I could find was something about oil acids if the engine idling in cold weather and doesn't warm up (johnboys thermostat recommendation) and then maybe condensation sitting in the exhaust, but that will blow once you do drive. After looking at a few, brief articles?, they're mainly concerned with the environmental aspects..

[cooljess76]

Originally Posted by Junk

How does wasting fuel necessarily mean it's building up gunk? If it does gunk up, how much of that is still there after the first moderate throttle? I think they mean it wastes fuel because you're not moving. Yes it runs rich when cold, it will run rich when you drive off cold too. OK it will heat up faster when you drive off. You say it's BAD.. OK it's bad. I was wrong cold idling is very bad, 1 year, 30% more wear, runs rich, etcetc. You're telling me this means something, I'm telling you it doesn't. I'm not saying you're wrong..

THe BMW manual doesn't tell me why it's bad, I didn't expect it to and I didn't scan the BMW manual. What's FFS?

I'm sorry if I missed some points, but like I said the first two (make that three)articles didn't say much in the way I was looking for (detrimental effects ON THE MOTOR of idling a cold engine vs. driving off right away) so I quit lookin, You still haven't told me what wore out on the patrol cars.

What?!!! When your engine is cold or idling, it generally runs richer. "Rich" means the air/fuel ratio is heavy on the fuel side. In simple terms, the engine isn't sucking in enough air to mix with the amount of fuel being pumped into it. Rich=Cold Lean=Hot. A lean running engine(too much air) is just as bad as it's gonna run hotter and put extra strain and fatigue on other components. It's very important to have a perfect air/fuel mixture.

This excessive and partially burnt fuel from running rich gunks up a number of things including but not limited to your valves, pistons, exhaust and sensors. This causes your engine to run poorly/less effeciently. A poorly maintained/less efficient running engine has to work harder which in turn will make it wear out faster. It doesn't just "go away" after you start driving. If an engine is poorly maintained and gets 5mpg less than an engine that has been properly maintained, that adds up to a lot over several thousand miles. By starting your car and driving it, it reaches operating temperatures much faster. THIS REDUCES THE AMOUNT OF TIME IT WOULD BE RUNNING RICH, thus extending the life of your engine and NOT WASTING FUEL. If you read my first post in this thread, you'll see that I mentioned(BEFORE johnboy) that oil settles to the bottom of the engine and by driving your car immediately after startup, you actually help get the oil flowing through the engine faster. Johnboy made a good point about metal parts needing to expand. The thermostat is a no brainer. A stuck open thermostat will not allow the engine to reach operating temperature, a stuck closed thermostat will cause an engine to overheat and a wrong temp thermostat will cause it to run too hot or too cold. Remember what I said about Rich=?/Lean=?

The short term effects of letting your car idle would be fuel wasted due to the car sitting there waiting to reach operating temperature. The long term effects from a gunked up engine are much more severe considering fuel wasted by gunked up sensors, gunked up cats and decreased engine performance, efficiency and longevity. A poorly maintained and or rich running engine will produce more pollution(emissions) as well as consume and waste more fuel which is also bad for the environment. If millions of people are letting their cars idle and warm up in their driveway, how much fuel do you think is being wasted every day? I'd say that's worth mentioning if I was writing an article on the negative effects of letting your car idle.

Is it really that difficult to understand? Am I not speaking clearly enough? Did I not provide enough information? Why should I waste my time talking to someone who can't even read an article or watch a video, let alone do some of his own research and provide evidence to support his claims? I'm done with this discussion, it's like talking to a child that keeps asking "but why" just to annoy you.

So the articles I linked make multiple points on the consequences of letting your car idle. So what if they make mention of the environmental impact. It's not the only thing mentioned. Just because you skipped over the parts where it talks about effects on the engine, doesn't mean it's not there. I've went further out of my way than I'd expect anyone else to, which is much more than I can say for you. What more can I possibly do besides post links to articles, videos, scan pages out of the manual, give personal experiences as examples or take the time to repeatedly explain things in detail? Do you need a letter from BMW? It's not my job to school you. If you don't believe what multiple people and sources are telling you, or if you can't understand that running an engine rich is bad for it, then get off your ass and do your own research. Or don't. Keep believing whatever you want to and go through life clueless. I could care less either way.

Originally Posted by Junk

You still haven't told me what wore out on the patrol cars.

How in the heck should I know? Ever seen a cop tearing apart a motor on a police car?


Somebody else tell this guy what FFS means. He won't believe me or take the time to google it anyway

[Platanos]

I'm only speculating but ffs = for sake

[Junk]

Jess: I'm only saying, when you drive off cold, the engine is still rich.. just because your driving doesn't mean it won't be rich still.

Yes it will warm up faster, it'll warm up even faster if you hammer it.

I didn't expect the BMW manual to tell me anything and I don't know why you keep mentioning it when YOU posted it.

Yes a poorly maintained vehicle will not just fix itself, everyone who warms up the engine at idle has a poorly maintained engine?

Yes millions of people idling will be bad for the environment, not necessarily bad for the engine, off topic again. I mean you must think the more irrelevant information you post the more right you are. c'mon ffs..

reduces efficiency, more pollution, more fuel, over time CAN hurt the motor, it's illegal, it's risky, it runs rich, it's un-necessary, it's bad for the environment gunked up sensors and cats? Really?.. yes if your o2 is bad and you idle it for long periods I'm thinking..

95% of what you're saying has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

Didn't expect for you to know what was wrong with the patrol cars, just thought I would ask. No problem if you don't know but like to talk about how they will break down but don't know what or why. I suspect in your patrol cars, they either never fully warmed up or idled for long periods after warmup.

I'm all for the environment, but if we all want to help the environment so bad, we should all kill ourselves. that will be better for the environment.

Jess.. I think the big issue is this.. you say negative effects of idling.. I should have clarified I meant negative effects on the motor.

[Platanos]

[Junk]

Forget the new thread, I'm STOP ping now, was going to start a new thread, but forget it. I GOOGLED and all I care to find is that it is un-necessary for me, in warm weather. It is eco-friendly motivated media, tests are not concerned with your engine wear. Affects are worse on diesels.. GUNK BUILDUP in cases of EXTENDED idling like taxis (I'll keep that in mind next time the drive through is slow)

I still would love to see gunk buildup on a car that idles 5 minutes to warmup, is driven to full operating temp afterwards, and more than 1/4 throttle is applied at some point.

I'm done! Feel free to correct me in the thread, PM hatemail to me.

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

Ok I don't want to take any sides here and I really don't care how you warm your car up, it's your car. Here is what I believe and know as fact.

The main damage that occurs during cold starts and idle is cylinder wall, piston skirt and ring damage. This occurs because your oil is like thick honey and it only dribbles out of the piston squirters at idle. Your motor relies on oil sling off the rod ends for lube in those areas. Additionally all other rotating parts are not at there correct expansion size so they will wear at a higher rate during warm-up. Second, when you turn off your motor at night and it cools it creates condensation or water in your oil. This water is circulated in your oil until it reaches operating temps and the water can be boiled off. I remove 1-2oz of water per month from my catch can. This is vaporized water from warm-ups. I believe these are facts since I experienced these things and have torn down my motor, the cylinder wall and piston issues are all common knowledge on any 4-stroke engine except a few designs that do not rely on rod oil sling. Remember the piston oil shooters are mainly for piston cooling, ok...

It takes me 20 minutes to idle warm-up and 2-3 minutes to warm-up driving normal under load. There is a great reduction in damage by me getting in and driving away right after I start my car. I live in Florida so I can do this. If I lived in a snow or ice area I'm sure I would need to clean the car defrost etc before the car was safe to drive which is way more important then worrying about permature engine wear or the cold idle issue. I do see both sides here...

With that said:

I treat my motors like a child as do some other members (Let me guess Jess too). My motor is treated very good, best oil, changes on time or early. Read, read, read on ways to improve on milage/performance and tricks to better the German engineering. It's a labor of love and if my car throws a code it's sick and I immediately work on it and take care of it. In return my car provides me with rides from point A to B and makes me feel good about myself. I'm proud of it and it does not break down on me

Other people don't care about their motors or car. They go 10K+ on oil changes, run $hit gas, run with the CEL on, who cares the car still runs. Idle until warm so they are comfortable, don't give a crap about the damage they are doing to the motor. Attitude of screw it I will deal with it when the problem comes or sell it before the problem apprears. I'm only one person poluting the earth I'm not causing issues, me, me, me I need to be comfortable

No I don't believe in global warming but I do believe in supply and demand on gas pricing so the nixt time you bitch about the price of gas you can say you helped get it there if you waste gas

Hey it's your motor treat it how you want. You can cold idle it all you want and it will most likely run ok since BMW's are well built motors. I just like to take the best care of my stuff that I can.

If it wasn't for people not taking care of their stuff we wouldn't have 75% of the traffic on this board so you guys at least give me something to do.

John S

[Marv17]

Okay, after reading some long posts i'm tired. i needed a before I could finish it all. And all the information shared by fellow members: Jess and John are useful and helpful. But Junk all I read from you was . They were just merely making some perfect points but everytime one was made you had to just try to knock it down. Yeah, you want explanations for everything but sometimes interpreting what is read or viewed needs to be done to fully understand it all. You may not believe much what Jess said but he is a credible guy and so is John. They both know what they're is talking about 99.5% of the time. If you don't want to believe him then look it up yourself, see if its true or not. And if you find information against his reasoning then share. I don't always believe Jess when he tells me information so I take the time to look it up to see if its true and majority of the time he is, other times its all up to you. Its your car, your motor, your etc. If you get all worked up and bothered by what I say then blow me because the original post pertains to keyless engine start. These guys merely provided information that its not advisable because it can damage your engine a little at a time from improper engine running temperature and/or lubrication. But each to his or hey own. I can do anything I want to my car and so can Jess and so can you. So enough of this punching each other .

K, gracias everyone for the good info.

NOW, if anyone wants to post please keep it straight to origin of the thread.

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

^^BS I'm only right 80% of the time and I know Jess is right more then me. I don't have any issues with anyone and I only hope to help people on the board. I just understand why everyone gets so worked up over things like this it's winter (LOL), I don't give a $hit what any of you do as long as you don't cause any permanet damage like poke my eye out or make one of my kids loose an arm. I'm cool are you all

I've learned a lot from this board and I'm just trying to pass it on...

Back on topic: Dude it's bad for your car...ok

[Marv17]

^^^ Haha, okay. fine. I was just trying to be polite giving you more credit.

Moral of the story, cool feature to have to be able to start your car with a remote but bad on the motor.

If anyone has information how to go about the install please share.

[Junk]

sorry to go off topic, moderators please delete my posts. im sure you'll get it wired no problem, the members here can guide you. dont worry i wont start asking questions. start picking out your alarm!

[Marv17]

Originally Posted by Junk

sorry to go off topic, moderators please delete my posts. im sure you'll get it wired no problem, the members here can guide you. dont worry i wont start asking questions. start picking out your alarm!

nah, its cool. just don't keep poking at the same question. its already been beaten on too much. i wouldn't have problems wiring it up once i do so if i even do it. i was just seeing what ppl thought and see if anyone has knowledge of doing so. I have my alarm already...
anyway, stop being so stubborn. it won't get you too far...

[lazoh]

Originally Posted by Junk

sorry to go off topic, moderators please delete my posts. im sure you'll get it wired no problem, the members here can guide you. dont worry i wont start asking questions. start picking out your alarm!

We will leave them unless Marv wants them deleted and since the thread is back on topic, we will also leave it open.