Is it possible to swap a regular e36 subframe into the Ti?

[ienjoydrifting]

First post! Might be building a ti in the future and I was wondering if its possible to swap a regular e36 subframe into the Ti? I know the M Coupe works, but I would really like to use the e36 geometry.

Thank you!
Chelsea

[spidertri]

I've never seen or heard of it being done but with enough time and money anything is possible.

[Junk]

Yea what spider said I'm sort of surprised it hasn't been done with all the m3 owners looking down upon us beause of our inferior, antiquated suspension. Beats the hell outta leaf springs at least. You'd best be getting a rear clip from an M3 and grafting the floorpan in place, I think people have mentioned the gas tank would get in the way. People have made 2 door wrx's out of 4 door versions so I think it is probably easier than that. Heck M3 owners be re-inforcing the RTAB's anyways so how much harder to weld new ones in place.. still.. it will be expensive either in time or money or both.. Is the trailing arm suspension really THAT bad? M coupes make do with it.. I haven't tracked my car and am finishing motor swap, but I plan on constructing a rear subfame that has adjustable brakets so you don't have to mis-align your rear bushings to adjust alignment.. you can use solid bushings that way.. probably be a good bit heavier than stock subfame but it's in a good location to add weight at least. Definately need more contact patch in the rear, I had my rear tires so worn that I wore through the steel belt on the inside corners and the outside still had some tread.. yea non-adjustable suspension is lame.

[cooljess76]

Personally I don't think our semi trailing arm suspension is inferior to the standard e36's multi-link suspension setup. There's a reason BMW used this setup on the Z3's and Mcoupes and I refuse to believe it was because of space constrictions or costs. People seem to think that BMW used leftover parts from the e30 to build our cars and that's complete BS. If they did, then how come none of the e30 rear suspension parts are compatible with our cars? Part numbers and geometries are different. Fact is, the compacts, Z3's and M coupes were introduced LOOOOOONG after the e36 was in production, 5 years to be exact. This means that BMW WENT BACK to the semi-trailing arm design for these models and if you look at these less common models, they all share one characteristic, they're enthusiast cars! They didn't produce nearly as many of them. The e36 coupes, sedans and verts were designed to be econimical and comfortable vehicles for the average driver. Our cars as well as the Z3's and M coupes offer a completely different rawness that you won't feel in a standard e36. Just because multi-link suspension is newer in design, doesn't necessarily mean it's better. One thing our cars don't suffer from is torn subframes(a common flaw on e36 coupes sedans and verts). So don't listen to those idiots on bf.c, they have no idea what they're talking about. They all drive 20 year old 3 series' that were mass produced and come a dime a dozen. Any chance they get to feel like their run of the mill 325i is somehow superior to our little cars is a big achievement to them. Be proud of the ti and accept it for what it is, a TRUE enthusiast car. Or just go pick up an e36 coupe or sedan, there's thousands of them and they're much cheaper and easier to find than a nice ti

[anthony318ti]

[QUOTE=coolBe proud of the ti and accept it for what it is, a TRUE enthusiast car. Or just go pick up an e36 coupe or sedan, there's thousands of them and they're much cheaper and easier to find than a nice ti[/QUOTE]

like this : ) do you guys know of any other Ti members in the south pacific that can help me? Out of the 4 318ti's there are only two operational ones mine and another help!

[kendogg]

Originally Posted by cooljess76

Personally I don't think our semi trailing arm suspension is inferior to the standard e36's multi-link suspension setup. There's a reason BMW used this setup on the Z3's and Mcoupes and I refuse to believe it was because of space constrictions or costs. People seem to think that BMW used leftover parts from the e30 to build our cars and that's complete BS. If they did, then how come none of the e30 rear suspension parts are compatible with our cars? Part numbers and geometries are different. Fact is, the compacts, Z3's and M coupes were introduced LOOOOOONG after the e36 was in production, 5 years to be exact. This means that BMW WENT BACK to the semi-trailing arm design for these models and if you look at these less common models, they all share one characteristic, they're enthusiast cars! They didn't produce nearly as many of them. The e36 coupes, sedans and verts were designed to be econimical and comfortable vehicles for the average driver. Our cars as well as the Z3's and M coupes offer a completely different rawness that you won't feel in a standard e36. Just because multi-link suspension is newer in design, doesn't necessarily mean it's better. One thing our cars don't suffer from is torn subframes(a common flaw on e36 coupes sedans and verts). So don't listen to those idiots on bf.c, they have no idea what they're talking about. They all drive 20 year old 3 series' that were mass produced and come a dime a dozen. Any chance they get to feel like their run of the mill 325i is somehow superior to our little cars is a big achievement to them. Be proud of the ti and accept it for what it is, a TRUE enthusiast car. Or just go pick up an e36 coupe or sedan, there's thousands of them and they're much cheaper and easier to find than a nice ti

Old thread, but n engineer friend who interned in Munich at BMW M Gmbh. They totalled a couple M Roadsters, noting that they were simple 'twitchy'. Thats due directly to the training arm suspension. Great cars, until they snap back... It works great - but multi-link IS better for handling. It's easier on tires, the toe curves are exponentially better, and it's more forgiving to the driver.

[zboot]

Even older thread but back in 2007, I swapped an e30 rear suspension into my ti. I was too poor and needed a working car too soon to do it right. A few years later, I'd swap back to ti parts when I did my m52 swap. The e30 parts are not strictly compatible, which is why I swapped the entire rear suspension, trailing arms, axles, etc.

[bullmand]

Yeah, besides BS comments in the general automotive press, I'm not sure where this idea that the ti rear suspension design is inferior came from. Nobody seems to mind it on the E30 M3 and the guys running SpecE30 don't seem to have much trouble hustling around a track. It does have a couple interesting characteristics that it will exhibit under track driving conditions, but nothing to be worried about once you know what it's going to do. Personally, like most everything else on the ti, I think the fact that it's simpler makes it superior to the other E36s. My question to folks that get worked up about this would be what exactly is it that you're trying to do that this "antiquated" suspension is keeping you from doing.

[cooljess76]

Originally Posted by bullmand

Yeah, besides BS comments in the general automotive press, I'm not sure where this idea that the ti rear suspension design is inferior came from. Nobody seems to mind it on the E30 M3 and the guys running SpecE30 don't seem to have much trouble hustling around a track. It does have a couple interesting characteristics that it will exhibit under track driving conditions, but nothing to be worried about once you know what it's going to do. Personally, like most everything else on the ti, I think the fact that it's simpler makes it superior to the other E36s. My question to folks that get worked up about this would be what exactly is it that you're trying to do that this "antiquated" suspension is keeping you from doing.

It's just kids being kids and believing what their friends are telling them. Heck, half of the kids on bf.c never seen a ti in person and don't even know the difference between multi-link and semi-trailing arm suspension. They just heard someone talking about it before and think their cars are the shiz because they sport a bike rack with a fixie and pink wheels with a ziptied lip and a stuffed animal hanging off their bumper Sorry, for the rant. I guess I'm just old school, I still wear boy jeans

OP, what is it about the regular e36's "geometry" that makes it so much "better"? And if you're going to say "better handling" then I'll beg to differ.

BTW, as far as contact patch and tire wear goes, if your car is lowered and you only drive on the street, sure your rear tires will wear faster on the inside due to negative camber. However, if you track your car, the negative camber actually increases grip in the corners and the tires will wear evenly. I have a couple friends that regularly track their Mcoupes. Sitting on level pavement they have ridiculous negative camber, but after a few runs you could look at the rear tires and the wear marks are perfectly even. I bought a set of track wheels that were used on an M coupe with extreme negative camber. They had shaved Toyo RA1's mounted that were worn down to the indicators. I used them for one session and the belts started to show across THE ENTIRE contact patch. My point is, if you drive your car hard enough, the tires will wear evenly. If you only drive it on the street, expect to rotate your tires often.

[dahamler]

Guys I hate to say it but the E36 rear is really better than ours, I have see it time and time again at the track. BMW did this due to space and cost constraints.

[cooljess76]

Originally Posted by dahamler

Guys I hate to say it but the E36 rear is really better than ours, I have see it time and time again at the track. BMW did this due to space and cost constraints.

Without more info on this, I'm inclined to respectfully disagree. What exactly do you see time and time again? The whole space and cost theory just doesn't add up for me. They could've easily designed the trunk floor to accomodate the e36 trailing arms and subframe. And the multi-link design couldn't have possibly costed much more than it did to engineer and produce the tried and true semi trailing arm setup on the compact chassis, not to mention completely different halfshafts and differentials. Wouldn't it have been cheaper for them to just use the same existing multi-link setup that they had been mass producing and using on regular e36's for 5 years?

FWIW, I pulled the entire rear suspension and subframe off of my M3 donor as a complete unit and the space under the car wasn't much greater than under the ti. The only real difference between the two undercarriages is aft of the subframe which is irrelevant to any suspension fitment issues. Keep in mind, the wheelbase is the same between compact, coupes and sedans. The shocks even mount in the same place. If it's so much better, then why is it that e36 subframes tear even with the dual eared diff hangers. Plenty of 6cyl ti's rolling around with single ear diff hangers and no one is complaining of any problems

Z3's and Mcoupes had a problem with the trunk floors tearing, not the actual subframes like regular e36's do. Neither seems to be an issue for the ti though.

[1996 328ti]

Originally Posted by dahamler

Guys I hate to say it but the E36 rear is really better than ours, I have see it time and time again at the track. BMW did this due to space and cost constraints.

E36 rear is more forgiving. Just as the E46 rear is more forgiving than the E36. And so it goes with the E90.

I don't know anything other than the ti, so I really wouldn't know.

[cooljess76]

Originally Posted by 1996 328ti

E36 rear is more forgiving. Just as the E46 rear is more forgiving than the E36. And so it goes with the E90.

I don't know anything other than the ti, so I really wouldn't know.

Car manufacturers try to offer the best product for the widest range of consumers. Every once in a while they try to please the enthusiasts. I've noticed that "forgiving" trend myself and it's that exact reason why I refuse to buy a newer BMW. I mean, you drive some of the newer models and you can't tell the difference between it and a Honda. The only way I know how to describe it as is "Generic". With all of the sleek/plush interior features, you almost forget you're driving a BMW. I guess there's more soccer moms and yuppies than there are enthusiasts. Seems like BMW's priority is trying to appeal to the masses

[dahamler]

My friend was constantly able to "put the power down" sooner during corner exits than my TI with 235 tires compared to my 255s. He was also much quicker in transitions than I was. You would suspect that he may be a better driver but we actually switched cars for a few run at an autocross and the time in his car as always quicker.

Note that we had very similar mods but my car has about a 400 lbs weight advantage.

http://www.amazon.com/BMW-Enthusiast.../dp/0837602203

This book actually goes into detail about the why the TI got the different rear-end.
I actually did alot of research on this during my 318ti LS1 project consideration.
I'll try to scan it tonight Jess so we can discuss further.

[dahamler]

E36 New suspension comments