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Old 12-31-2010, 04:56 AM   #1
ienjoydrifting
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Default Is it possible to swap a regular e36 subframe into the Ti?

First post! Might be building a ti in the future and I was wondering if its possible to swap a regular e36 subframe into the Ti? I know the M Coupe works, but I would really like to use the e36 geometry.

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Old 12-31-2010, 05:32 AM   #2
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I've never seen or heard of it being done but with enough time and money anything is possible.
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Old 01-07-2011, 06:17 PM   #3
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Yea what spider said I'm sort of surprised it hasn't been done with all the m3 owners looking down upon us beause of our inferior, antiquated suspension. Beats the hell outta leaf springs at least. You'd best be getting a rear clip from an M3 and grafting the floorpan in place, I think people have mentioned the gas tank would get in the way. People have made 2 door wrx's out of 4 door versions so I think it is probably easier than that. Heck M3 owners be re-inforcing the RTAB's anyways so how much harder to weld new ones in place.. still.. it will be expensive either in time or money or both.. Is the trailing arm suspension really THAT bad? M coupes make do with it.. I haven't tracked my car and am finishing motor swap, but I plan on constructing a rear subfame that has adjustable brakets so you don't have to mis-align your rear bushings to adjust alignment.. you can use solid bushings that way.. probably be a good bit heavier than stock subfame but it's in a good location to add weight at least. Definately need more contact patch in the rear, I had my rear tires so worn that I wore through the steel belt on the inside corners and the outside still had some tread.. yea non-adjustable suspension is lame.

Last edited by Junk; 01-07-2011 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 01-07-2011, 07:31 PM   #4
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Personally I don't think our semi trailing arm suspension is inferior to the standard e36's multi-link suspension setup. There's a reason BMW used this setup on the Z3's and Mcoupes and I refuse to believe it was because of space constrictions or costs. People seem to think that BMW used leftover parts from the e30 to build our cars and that's complete BS. If they did, then how come none of the e30 rear suspension parts are compatible with our cars? Part numbers and geometries are different. Fact is, the compacts, Z3's and M coupes were introduced LOOOOOONG after the e36 was in production, 5 years to be exact. This means that BMW WENT BACK to the semi-trailing arm design for these models and if you look at these less common models, they all share one characteristic, they're enthusiast cars! They didn't produce nearly as many of them. The e36 coupes, sedans and verts were designed to be econimical and comfortable vehicles for the average driver. Our cars as well as the Z3's and M coupes offer a completely different rawness that you won't feel in a standard e36. Just because multi-link suspension is newer in design, doesn't necessarily mean it's better. One thing our cars don't suffer from is torn subframes(a common flaw on e36 coupes sedans and verts). So don't listen to those idiots on bf.c, they have no idea what they're talking about. They all drive 20 year old 3 series' that were mass produced and come a dime a dozen. Any chance they get to feel like their run of the mill 325i is somehow superior to our little cars is a big achievement to them. Be proud of the ti and accept it for what it is, a TRUE enthusiast car. Or just go pick up an e36 coupe or sedan, there's thousands of them and they're much cheaper and easier to find than a nice ti

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Old 01-07-2011, 07:50 PM   #5
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Yeah, besides BS comments in the general automotive press, I'm not sure where this idea that the ti rear suspension design is inferior came from. Nobody seems to mind it on the E30 M3 and the guys running SpecE30 don't seem to have much trouble hustling around a track. It does have a couple interesting characteristics that it will exhibit under track driving conditions, but nothing to be worried about once you know what it's going to do. Personally, like most everything else on the ti, I think the fact that it's simpler makes it superior to the other E36s. My question to folks that get worked up about this would be what exactly is it that you're trying to do that this "antiquated" suspension is keeping you from doing.
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:09 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullmand View Post
Yeah, besides BS comments in the general automotive press, I'm not sure where this idea that the ti rear suspension design is inferior came from. Nobody seems to mind it on the E30 M3 and the guys running SpecE30 don't seem to have much trouble hustling around a track. It does have a couple interesting characteristics that it will exhibit under track driving conditions, but nothing to be worried about once you know what it's going to do. Personally, like most everything else on the ti, I think the fact that it's simpler makes it superior to the other E36s. My question to folks that get worked up about this would be what exactly is it that you're trying to do that this "antiquated" suspension is keeping you from doing.
It's just kids being kids and believing what their friends are telling them. Heck, half of the kids on bf.c never seen a ti in person and don't even know the difference between multi-link and semi-trailing arm suspension. They just heard someone talking about it before and think their cars are the shiz because they sport a bike rack with a fixie and pink wheels with a ziptied lip and a stuffed animal hanging off their bumper Sorry, for the rant. I guess I'm just old school, I still wear boy jeans

OP, what is it about the regular e36's "geometry" that makes it so much "better"? And if you're going to say "better handling" then I'll beg to differ.

BTW, as far as contact patch and tire wear goes, if your car is lowered and you only drive on the street, sure your rear tires will wear faster on the inside due to negative camber. However, if you track your car, the negative camber actually increases grip in the corners and the tires will wear evenly. I have a couple friends that regularly track their Mcoupes. Sitting on level pavement they have ridiculous negative camber, but after a few runs you could look at the rear tires and the wear marks are perfectly even. I bought a set of track wheels that were used on an M coupe with extreme negative camber. They had shaved Toyo RA1's mounted that were worn down to the indicators. I used them for one session and the belts started to show across THE ENTIRE contact patch. My point is, if you drive your car hard enough, the tires will wear evenly. If you only drive it on the street, expect to rotate your tires often.

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Old 01-08-2011, 12:07 AM   #7
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Guys I hate to say it but the E36 rear is really better than ours, I have see it time and time again at the track. BMW did this due to space and cost constraints.
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:43 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by dahamler View Post
Guys I hate to say it but the E36 rear is really better than ours, I have see it time and time again at the track. BMW did this due to space and cost constraints.
Without more info on this, I'm inclined to respectfully disagree. What exactly do you see time and time again? The whole space and cost theory just doesn't add up for me. They could've easily designed the trunk floor to accomodate the e36 trailing arms and subframe. And the multi-link design couldn't have possibly costed much more than it did to engineer and produce the tried and true semi trailing arm setup on the compact chassis, not to mention completely different halfshafts and differentials. Wouldn't it have been cheaper for them to just use the same existing multi-link setup that they had been mass producing and using on regular e36's for 5 years?

FWIW, I pulled the entire rear suspension and subframe off of my M3 donor as a complete unit and the space under the car wasn't much greater than under the ti. The only real difference between the two undercarriages is aft of the subframe which is irrelevant to any suspension fitment issues. Keep in mind, the wheelbase is the same between compact, coupes and sedans. The shocks even mount in the same place. If it's so much better, then why is it that e36 subframes tear even with the dual eared diff hangers. Plenty of 6cyl ti's rolling around with single ear diff hangers and no one is complaining of any problems

Z3's and Mcoupes had a problem with the trunk floors tearing, not the actual subframes like regular e36's do. Neither seems to be an issue for the ti though.

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Old 01-08-2011, 01:03 AM   #9
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My friend was constantly able to "put the power down" sooner during corner exits than my TI with 235 tires compared to my 255s. He was also much quicker in transitions than I was. You would suspect that he may be a better driver but we actually switched cars for a few run at an autocross and the time in his car as always quicker.

Note that we had very similar mods but my car has about a 400 lbs weight advantage.

http://www.amazon.com/BMW-Enthusiast.../dp/0837602203

This book actually goes into detail about the why the TI got the different rear-end.
I actually did alot of research on this during my 318ti LS1 project consideration.
I'll try to scan it tonight Jess so we can discuss further.
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:17 AM   #10
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E36 New suspension comments


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Old 01-08-2011, 01:58 AM   #11
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While the e30 was similar in design, fact is NONE of the 318ti rear suspension parts came from, were used on, or are compatible with e30's. I did a part# cross reference on realoem for the trailing arms, halfshafts, subframe and differntial and all of the part#'s come back to only the ti and Z3's.


"to accomodate the suspension" not the other way around. The suspension wasn't designed to accomodate the floorpan or space constraints.


^^^this right here says it all. Basically what I've been saying that the ti was a solution to the otherwise generic feel of the standard e36's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they implying that the semi-trailing arm suspension makes the car feel sportier?

The compact was introduced a year after the e36 M3 made it's debut in Europe and the Z3 and Mcoupes were added a year after the compact. Could it have been that BMW noticed a flaw in subframe design before they started making the compacts, Z3's and Mcoupes? Or perhaps they got some feedback on the generic handling characteristics of the e36 coupes and sedans and wanted to bring back the raw feel of the e30 M3?

The differences you see at the track could be any number of things. I mean you said so yourself that tire sizes, weight and mods were not the same. What about ASC, gear ratios, swaybars etc? You can't possibly expect two different cars to handle/perform exactly the same. There's just too many variables. What it all boils down to is someone's opinion on which setup is actually "better". Even the info published in books is just someone's opinion. It's hard to say that anything is factual. I'm sure the author of that book was not a spokesman for BMW's research and development or marketing department. Look what Road & Track had to say:


Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and ideology. Great example, I just read the article you posted and got an entirely different interpretation of it.

I've posted my story elsewhere on the forum, but I'll give you a brief description of how I got into ti's. It started back in 1999 when I moved to Sicily. A friend loaned me his e30 m3 for a whole month! It was the first Bimmer I ever drove. I immediately fell in love with that car. Finally I found a '91 e36(eurospec) 318i and purchased it. After a couple weeks, I was disappointed that it didn't feel as good as the e30 M3 did. Figured a little more power is what it lacked, so I picked up a 328is. Power was really close to the e30 M3, but it still felt kinda generic. Drove both of those cars while stationed overseas, sold them right before I came home. Bought a Jeep Wrangler and had fun with it for a couple years before deciding to get back into bimmers. Sold the Jeep and test drove an avus blue '96 318ti base. Immediately felt the rawness of the e30 m3! Since then I've owned 3 318ti's. I've driven e30's, e34's e39's, e36's, e46's and even an e90 as well as a couple Mcoupes thanks to friends, family and dealership test drives. Came really close on more than one occasion to pulling the trigger on a Z4 Mcoupe. I've owned 6 e36's, 3 of them ti's and none of them gave me the same thrill that the e30 m3 did. The ti comes really close and I'm hoping that the S52 powerplant will deliver the experience I've been chasing all of these years. Unless I can find an unmolested e30 M3 for a reasonable price, my heart will always be with the ti

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Old 01-08-2011, 02:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamler View Post
Guys I hate to say it but the E36 rear is really better than ours, I have see it time and time again at the track. BMW did this due to space and cost constraints.
E36 rear is more forgiving. Just as the E46 rear is more forgiving than the E36. And so it goes with the E90.

I don't know anything other than the ti, so I really wouldn't know.
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Old 01-08-2011, 02:34 AM   #13
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E36 rear is more forgiving. Just as the E46 rear is more forgiving than the E36. And so it goes with the E90.

I don't know anything other than the ti, so I really wouldn't know.
Car manufacturers try to offer the best product for the widest range of consumers. Every once in a while they try to please the enthusiasts. I've noticed that "forgiving" trend myself and it's that exact reason why I refuse to buy a newer BMW. I mean, you drive some of the newer models and you can't tell the difference between it and a Honda. The only way I know how to describe it as is "Generic". With all of the sleek/plush interior features, you almost forget you're driving a BMW. I guess there's more soccer moms and yuppies than there are enthusiasts. Seems like BMW's priority is trying to appeal to the masses
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Old 01-08-2011, 02:37 AM   #14
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Seems like BMW's priority is trying to appeal to the masses
That is where the money is.
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Old 01-08-2011, 05:50 AM   #15
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From my point of view, and what ive been taught, as an alignment tech, the multilink suspension is forgiving for the reason of safety, fine tuning, market appeal, and ability to multitask. Unfortunately, theyre more costly to repair and take much longer to tune than a semi-trailing arm suspension setup. If you break both suspensions down to their core componants, youll see many more parts needed to compose the multilink suspension, thus providing you with more parts that may potentially need to be replaced due to wear and tear. Youre usually able to adjust camber and toe with most factory multilinks, but even with some of the brand new cars ive worked on, they only allow toe adjustment, but which can only do so much in a performance setup.

Ive read through the article posted above and see a few things that arent mentioned about the cars and suspension but will note on the weight distribution, the multilink will gross a bit more weight due to more parts needed to attach each piece together and to the chassis but at the same time, the battery had been relocated to the rear of the car. If you notice on the MZ3, the battery is located in the rear center of the trunks floor, right behind the differential, thus, removing the extra weight from the front or rear corner of the car, meaning, no ballast or additional weight needed to balance the chassis out for the somewhat heavy product. Combine that with the larger 188mm differential and slightly larger axles, the weight is put in a useful spot and brings the chassis back towards the green of 50/50 like the rest of the E36 lineup.

Semi-trailing can be tuned to where you need them to be, comfort or aggressive, not too much median. You can adjust, camber and toe, and with the correct set of subframe bushings, you can lower the car even further or if its low, you can bring the subframe closer to the chassis giving you the ability to gain more positive camber. Too much negative camber can wear the tire unevenly, but its toe that eats your tires quickly. The hollowed arms make for less unsprung weight and less wear and tear parts. Theyre also the soft spot of the chassis/suspension, meaning theyre used at protection to damage in the case of accidents and such, that theyre sacrificed and minimize damage elsewhere. Ive had two personal cases in which this has saved the chassis and minimized the damage spread and usually only cost you the arm, an axle nut, possible a shock, and an alignment. They may seem inferior in the way they move or how uncool they look compared to a multlink, but they perform just the same, in the case that they support the chassis, provide maneuverability, can be adjusted to where you need them, and are readibly replacable.

If you look at the stock specs for the E36, they havent been tuned for aggressive driving, nor sportiness, theyre specd for comfort and safety. If im not mistaken, the ti is about .2* toed in with ~1.5* of negative camber, it helps with stability at speed and cornering at the expense of your tires. The front is toed out about .5* with about (-).5-1* of camber. Obviously, witch camber plates, toe kits, caster plates, camber bolts, etc. alignments can be specd where you want and essentially NEED them, so its about what you need the car for and how its supposed to work for you.

No one takes into consideration the fine tuning pieces beyond just the arms and such, look at the shocks/struts and their quality and properties, sway bars, bushings and compounds of bushings, wheel and tire sizes, weights of wheel packages, size and weight of brakes, size and weight of differentials, and most important, your alignment. Without a proper alignment, tuned to what you want, youll never have what you want and expect from your long list of *parts*.
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