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Old 09-21-2017, 02:06 AM   #1
Endat
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Default Which diff on 2.8 engine?

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Last edited by Endat; 10-15-2017 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 09-21-2017, 03:18 AM   #2
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It's all personal preference. I was running a 410 medium case LSD on built M50 2.8. First was basically useless. It needs a 6spd swap for highways but around town fun. I didn't even mind highway. I don't drive fast just quick if that makes sense. But yes the 2.8 will have enough torque for that. I'd find a 2.93. As for displacements there are many differences between a stock m52 and S52.
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:39 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
I'm approaching 270k miles with the original engine, so I've been thinking a lot about what to do when it dies.. if it dies.

I have been leaning towards the 2.8L engine, but I currently have a 3.45 diff. The gears are too short for my liking and I imagine it would be magnified by the larger engine, rendering 1st gear useless. I have been thinking of going extreme with a 2.7 diff from the automatic and was wondering if the 2.8 would have any trouble turning it. Anyone ever try this? Would a 3.2 be good enough for my goals?

My goal is to make it drive more like my Porsche, which doesn't need get out of 1st gear until about 45mph.
Hmm . . Not sure what to say, its a 318ti, even with a swap it won't drive like a Porsche, not saying in the good or bad sense just that your comparing apples to oranges. Especially since you didn't mention which make/model/year . . kind of hard comparison.

I have a m52 swap with a 3.46 diff and I daily it, drive roughly ~60 miles a day on it and have no problem - that is with LA traffic. Well actually, it does suck sometimes, but I have done it for years and so far I am managing.

I don't know where you get a 2.7 from but to get to 45MPH in first you will need to hit 7k rpm That is with a 2.7. Like ZEK said you could go with 2.93 but honestly I wouldn't go lower. Stock 328is/328i came with a 2.93 and people switch them out for the M3 3.23 all the time (for coupe/sedan e36). The 2.8 z3 coupe and roadster came stock with a 3.15.

If you really want to go with a 2.7 (maybe from a e30 eta?) or something super low geared like that I would personally go with a the 3.2 (s52) or might as well try LS1 then. lol
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Old 09-21-2017, 09:13 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
An LS1? Yeah, that's what I need.. a 500lb hunk of **** that produces 47hp per litre and gets 8mpg



Cool. It's mainly for interstate travel so I'm not really worried about it being quick as much as low rpm cruising. Going with the M52 because of its cost and availability. Doesn't make sense putting a $2,500 S52 into a $500 car.
Well its good you got your answer. You are correct in saying the m52 is more available and is a good budget swap, it can also net you decent mpg with a 2.93 - if your driving mostly freeway. I know a member on the forum got 33mpg when only driving freeway with a S52 and a 2.93. So good luck!

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Okay I can't help it I gotta say something. Your comment about the LS1 completely missed the point. Your first post you mentioned about reaching 45MPH in 1st gear. That is all the 3.2l (S52) then LS1 comment pointed toward, the "500lb hunk of **** that produces 47hp per litre and gets 8mpg" is a completely pointless comment. Long gears usually mean you have more torque to keep the car going at lower rpms since you will be in those lower rpms more often - thus the 3.2 (s52) or LS1 - comment - 3.2 - obviously more torque. LS1 was tongue in cheek for reaching 45MPH in 1st gear.

47hp per litre - LS1 can easily produce very good numbers N/A, also higher hp per litre usually means higher rpms = shorter gears = not what your looking for. Besides the 2.8l m52 also isn't known for hp per litre..

8mpg - look at the e36 guys that have swapped the LS1, get anywhere from 12mpg - 24mpg or even higher depending on mods/rear end ratio/ wheels & tires etc.

500lb - go take a look at how much a iron block m52 weighs .. . its not exactly light weight, also if you compare displacement and power output for its weight LS1 will destroy the m52.

Done ranting sorry!
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:32 AM   #5
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V8 is also not as long so the weight stays roughly aft of the front axle. There are other GM LS engines that are aluminium block and plenty of aluminum heads. They are not bad engines and with a proper 6 speed can be fun.

That being said an older LT1 engine is a boat anchor but it too could be tuned to make more hp, the run of the mill was so detuned it was silly.
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:49 AM   #6
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If you're doing a "budget" minded build then go for M52. 2.93 for highway driving if you're in a 5speed. Also your LS1 comment is hilarious and wrong. Anassa you basically summed it up. While it's not everyone's cup of tea the facts are facts and it is an amazing platform.
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Old 09-22-2017, 10:54 PM   #7
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2.79 from what car? An E30 sure it will move it but you will find yourself doing more shifts. The m52 powered E38 728i and as you know here in the US the 328i came with it and a 2.93 open differential.

You seem to be angry because your thread got off track. We could say lighten up francis but that might make you more angry.
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Old 09-23-2017, 07:46 AM   #8
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Endat you are of course completely entitled to your opinion. Not everyone likes the LS platform but we can't ignore the facts about it. Any 6 will make the Ti more front biased. Suspension will need to be changed. I put budget in quotes as it appears you don't want to sink a lot money into a 270K rusted body. Makes sense. Do you want the low RPM for purely fuel or noise? The 6s will achieve good mileage even around 4K. You might want to look for different cams on the 6s that will produce low end torque. Headers will change that as well.

E30-M3 The 2.79 came in the 325e. I've only ever seen LSD's for sale.

Side note - We're all enthusiasts here and we have no way to know everyone's personal preferences through the Internet. We're giving you an answer and other options that you may not know about.
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Old 09-23-2017, 09:14 PM   #9
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Exciting!! Some drama!

Thank you for taking the time to type out that long response along with colors, bold emphasis etc. Seriously, not many people put that much effort into a post.

I took the time to read everything you wrote so I hope you can do the same for me! If not . . . well it happens, its the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post


First of all, I NEVER said I wanted to reach 45mph in 1st gear. What i said was, "My goal is to make it drive more like my Porsche, which doesn't need get out of 1st gear until about 45mph" which literally meant that I wanted the gearing to be similar or at least wider. Obviously nothing is going to come close to the efficiency of a car whose H6 is bolted almost directly to the drive wheels.
You are correct, you never said you wanted to reach 45MPH, but since the 45MPH in 1st gear is the measure you used for what you would prefer the car to be able to do. That is the information that we used to help with gear ratio. What I mentioned about rpm vs mph is actually taken from calculating ZF trans gearing, 225/45/17 tires and a 2.70 diff (Not a random "oh you need 7k rpm to reach that") I was literally just giving the numbers of what you can expect for 1st gear range with that diff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
What you did, anassa, was take something specific out of context, twist it and run with it.
Ah the personal insults come out. Good word play though, I have thought of it myself that my screen name has "ass" in it - it is kinda funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
I would be happy if 1st gear lasted until 30mph,
There we go, some good information, 1st to 30MPH is roughly what your looking for? At RPM what are you comfortable driving the car up to? Like 30MPH at 4k rpm? 5? I'm honestly just curious as to what kind of diff mated with a ZF trans (stock 328/m3 trans) will give you the goal your looking for. Right now we are strictly speaking about gearing, not the engine that could drive the gearing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
but your reaction is my fault since I didn't specifically say that. Even if I did, no amount of specificity will be enough for people like you because you ALWAYS have something to say and nothing to do aside from being a debate sparker and first-responder, so you sit there and dissect one sentence I say into several bulletpoints of worthless conjecture.
I'm a keyboard killer alright! Here to spark controversy and arguments - you can click on my screen name - go to statistics and see every since post I have posted here if you would like to see my keyboard killing skills!

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Originally Posted by Endat View Post
Good job, you're so wise and respectable . Go back to sitting in traffic and being careful about where you park, dick head.
Eh, personal insult again. Sitting in traffic does suck though, your right! If you come to LA and sit in traffic for a while you will see. My A/C doesn't even work. My paint isn't 100% so I don't have to worry too much about dings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
As far as the LS1, it is a total crap platform IN MY OPINION which I am fully entitled to.
You can have your own opinion, but you can also be wrong. I know I am often wrong and can learn from that, it happens. For example: my opinion is that the earth is flat and I can have that opinion. But I would also be wrong. I admit that is a pretty bad example, just pointing out difference between claim of fact vs opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
But in fact, it's inefficient in almost every practical way.
Really? I honestly don't know much about the LSX engines, just that they are a common platform that many people like for easy power/torque, accessibility and dare I say reliability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
Oh, and sorry I got my numbers slightly off in order to make a point.. didn't realize this was the math club. It's more like 497lbs, 60hp per litre and 14mpg in its stock form. SO WRONG I WAS, but still sh!t numbers.
Having your numbers off makes a big deal because it also spreads misinformation as anyone who reads it will take your comment "as-is". With my mad google search skills - LS1 first came in the 1997 corvette for 345hp, at 5.556L (lets just say 5.7) 345hp/5.7 ~60.5 hp per liter (your right!) and the 1997 corvette was rated as 17 city / 25 highway MPG.

Now we are REALLY getting off topic. But as mentioned before the LS1 comment was PURELY due to TORQUE! NOT horsepower! Sorry I felt that needed emphasis. You really need torque to drive long gearing like your asking, not high hp per liter!! This distinction is very important!

HP per liter is not really a common standard used when talking about HP with m52/s52 just because it was not made to be a high reving engine - which usually has good hp per liter, like the Honda B16b (1.6l with 185hp) B18c (1.8l 195hp) or F20C (2.0l 240hp) engines, those are brilliant little engines. But then they also have short gearing to make up for lack of torque, and all that shifting is exactly what your not looking for. The m44 stock 318ti engine feels "peppy" partly due to its shorter gearing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
To be even more clear, I would NEVER put a Chevy LS engine IN ANYTHING because I hate it! Not because it's the only decent line of engines GM has ever made, no that's admirable since they're not a very good company and I've been rooting for them my whole life. Mostly it's because of fanboys like you who use their opinionated over-posting keyboards to spout all this drooling nonsense all over the internet about how it's the best engine in the world because it has only 1 camshaft, a monkey could make it run and every tom/dick and harry knows someone who got 2,000hp just by changing every internal component and the fuel off of which it runs. Yeah, such a great engine. Why didn't you put one in YOUR car instead of the M52 you talk so much sh!t about? It's not exactly expensive, rare or difficult to shove into any chassis.. I even saw it powering a blender once on Top Gear.
Hmm not much content here. I would love to have a LS1 in my 318ti, but I don't have the skills, money, time to make that happen, and also would have a hard time getting it smog legal as I am trying to do. Remember California sucks when it comes to smog! Besides having that much torque and power would require me to reinforce a lot of parts in the chassis that are made for the power, and I would have to run larger tires, larger brakes, etc, it never is just as simple as a engine swap. Balance is required between power/brakes/suspension/chassis etc. That would also just cost waaaayyy more then I can afford. It would be cool someday though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
As for the M52 itself, weight is my primary concern and I have always been fully aware that it's 375lbs. A lot compared to the M42, M44 or even S62 V8. But still 125lb lighter than this chevy nonsense I'm being lectured about, and WITHOUT making my car sound like a pickup truck, which is what I associate with V8 sounds because every truck-driving moron down here in "da souf" makes their V8 sound "more badass" so they can go 45mph as loudly as possible. It's annoying as phuck.
One reason I went with m52 is also due to weight believe it or not.
If you can source a m52 from a z3 it has a aluminum block! I am hoping to eventually maybe go that route. But you will have to be careful about the aluminum block getting too hot, from other peoples experience they like to warp. Or you can use the M52tu/m54 from e46 which also has a aluminum block. It will definitely help with keeping the front from getting too heavy. Hmm sounds like a local issue about the whole truck thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
If I wanted a V8, I could easily do an S62 swap which would keep it BMW and be better in every way than using the engine from a junk yard Trans-Am, "Camero", Corvette, Firebird, etc.. but on a rusted 270k mile car? I don't think so.

I have also thought about keeping it light by supercharging an M42 or M44 engine. However, twin-screw setups (my preference) are not available for less than $6k, which is the cost of a decent 335i these days.. Defeating the purpose.

I could also buy a totaled 335i and do an N54 swap. But again, why?
Some interesting ideas, usually for me when I consider swaps/FI it comes down to if it can pass smog, I prefer being able to open my hood and not worry about getting in trouble. (Again, California!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
My goal isn't "budget". I never said that word, so why did you put it in quotes? My goal is low-rpm cruising between states without a ton of fuel stops and without spending enough to defeat the purpose of having this car in the first place. I got it as a secondary car to have fun with and road trip in a carefree manner, that's all. And what's wrong with that? Nothing.
Budget seems to part of it, cost of swap/engine vs value of having it in a "$500 318ti" so yes, it seems like budget is a large consideration as you want it to make sense for your purpose. I think most everyone has that constraint, and rightly so. Engine + diff to reach your goal of low RPM cruising is goal, so I think the posts have actually been pretty relevant to your needs.
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Old 09-23-2017, 09:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
And seriously.. All I asked is whether the 2.8L engine could turn the 2.7 diff... IN A SECTION DEDICATED TO DIFFERENTIAL DISCUSSION.
Well to be fair you did ask if the "3.2" engine would be more suitable for your goal so you did mention choice of engine. The LS1 comment was again related to the idea of torque needed to turn the low gears. The reaction you gave of hearing the couple letters "LS1" and that reaction with incorrect information is what caused the rest of the discussion. Which can be a good learning experience for everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
I got my answer, sure. What did I get more of? Some idiot talking about apples and oranges and then spewing nonsense about an unrelated product he doesn't even own and then 3 other people arguing the merits of said product after I CLEARLY express the fact that I am not interested.
Sigh.. personal insults again.


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Such nice people.
Thanks! We try!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
Honestly, I try to liven up this dead forum with a few relevant posts and this is what I get... bullsh!t.
For that thanks!!! New members who post and are involved are good! There are many members who have been here for a while that only check in once in a while, including me, and it doesn't really help keep the place lively. So we should also maybe take more responsibility in trying to respond more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endat View Post
Next someone will say I should strip my interior if I'm so concerned about weight. Ridiculous.

No wonder nobody posts here.

Thanks for giving us some excitement.

Phew, that took a while, at least its Saturday morning so its nice to relax a bit! I hope this has been helpful for someone!
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Old 09-23-2017, 11:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZEK View Post
Endat you are of course completely entitled to your opinion. Not everyone likes the LS platform but we can't ignore the facts about it. Any 6 will make the Ti more front biased. Suspension will need to be changed. I put budget in quotes as it appears you don't want to sink a lot money into a 270K rusted body. Makes sense. Do you want the low RPM for purely fuel or noise? The 6s will achieve good mileage even around 4K. You might want to look for different cams on the 6s that will produce low end torque. Headers will change that as well.

E30-M3 The 2.79 came in the 325e. I've only ever seen LSD's for sale.

Side note - We're all enthusiasts here and we have no way to know everyone's personal preferences through the Internet. We're giving you an answer and other options that you may not know about.
Agreed so no need to get all upset if it's a bit off track, you could just give a nudge to push on track.

Now why less people post here is the car is becoming less and less common and forums seem to be a dying format much like LP gave way to cd's and then mp3 and then streaming.

Yes we are all enthusiasts so when some one gets angry over somebody elses opinion its no need of blowing up most of us here are over the age of 21.
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:59 AM   #12
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...You know what you could do. Reduce weight, strip that interio.....Oh shoot, already mentioned. (J/K!)



What about a good gear speed calculator? Can fine tune to your needs.

http://www.endtuning.com/gearratios/
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:10 PM   #13
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That's a great gear chart.
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Old 10-15-2017, 08:10 PM   #14
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Exciting!! Some drama!
^ This guy is the problem (Btw didn't read the rest of his dissection of each sentence I said bc now isn't a good time for that, for me)

My anger was multiplied by the death of my father which occured the day before anassa decided to turn my thread into a circus. The rest of you are a decent lot, but I've decided to stay off the forums and not ask feedback from possible antagonists. Opting instead for quietly doing actual research. Furthermore, since my posts about brake overhauls and headlight cleaning with lots of pictures aren't really much value anyway, I've deleted them all, along with my more trivial posts. Only this one remains, to tell you what's going on with me. Now for the car...

The Car's Fate?
I will go the long-term, and relatively expensive route to upgrade and maintain the original M44 4cyl until it needs rebuilt. It has an iron block and a few improvement options to experiment with as time goes by. My options, in order of progression, can begin whenever I find the motivation:
  • T3/T4 Turbocharger .50AR (with hopes it will spool JUST enough at 5th gear cruising speed)
    • exhaust manifold w/ bottom-mounting for turbo and top mounting for wastegate
    • tial wastegate set at 4.8psi (no thoughts yet on watercooling)
    • Oil cooler lines (inlet tapped from somewhere, outlet probably fed back into the oil pan)
    • turbo inlet piped to original airbox, possibly fogged
    • blow off valve (havent decided which)
    • 27"x5.5"x2.5" black aluminum intercooler
    • Siemens 630cc injectors
    • Fuel pressure regulator (havent decided which)
    • Custom Wastegate tubing to Downpipe and exhaust
    • New exhaust, quiet as possible.
  • Dyno tuning and possibly a custom engine management
  • A 2.93, 3.15 or 3.2 diff (not the 3.2 engine)
  • Handling
    • Style 43 wheels, sticky tires
    • swaybars + bushings
    • maybe the chassis bushings
    • possibly some adjustable bilstein coilovers to replace my current bilstein yellow setup
  • Then once the engine starts to rattle, COMPLETE OVERHAUL BEGINS
  • cams from dbilas (either 256* w/10.7 lift or 264* w/10.2 lift) - whatever works best for a small turbo
  • Stroker diesel crankshaft (modification required, I know)
  • Cylinder bore to 86mm + CP-Carrillo 86mm pistons at 8.5:1 compression
  • Forged H-beam rods (lots of options there)
  • Possibly some cylinder head work
  • Head Gasket - VAC Performance MLS/Multi Layered steel, 86mm bore, 0.60" or above thickness
  • Possibly some intake manifold work
  • More boost springs in the wastegate
  • more dyno tuning
  • And why not? a wet 10 shot of Nitrous connected to the throttle kickdown button that's still there from the automatic
  • more dyno tuning

Long Term?
Once the chassis is beaten to death and can no longer handle its own heart, I can remove the bilstein coilovers along with the engine and wrap it up for later use. Then leave its body to the vultures who will ask to buy the good bits for next to nothing. Once it's nothing more than a shell, I have to quarter it with a sawzall and haul to the scrap yard in pieces for $86 probably.
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:13 PM   #15
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Hey man,
Sorry to hear about your loss, that really does suck, I wish the best for you and your family.

Also its too bad you deleted your posts, as they could of been helpful for other people in the future who ask the same question.

As for your " relatively expensive route" - which does not seem practical, but honestly as a car enthusiasts I don't think there is ever a actual "practical" or "cost-effective" route, I'm speaking from my own experience too, modding =/= practical/cost effective, oh well. Do put up a build thread when you get a chance, it seems like fun. There are a few that have gone before you with boosting the M44, off the top of my head I know xxxJohnBoyxxx has spent a lot of time working to boost his m44, and gave me a few pointers when I was also considering that route. Maybe you could search up his posts to see if there is helpful information.

Don't worry I won't be nice all of a sudden either, I stand by what I have said above.

Good luck.
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