» Site Navigation | | » Recent Threads | 1999 M3 Swap 09-07-2023 10:10 PM Today 08:18 PM 6 Replies, 317,296 Views | | | | | | | 07-18-2011, 09:10 AM | #1 | Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: VAN Posts: 71 | Turbo kit interest I would like to gauge interest in an intercooled turbo kit (for low boost the intercooler could be made optional, if only running 4-5 PSI then that could cut the cost even more) I currently build and sell a few very successful turbo kits for other cars, and with the cost of the DAS/C supercharger and the fact that it seems it's maker is not really interested in selling them, I figured maybe it is time for me to step in. What I am proposing is a simple intercooled system that will offer a 50-75HP gain (just like the DAS/C) and will actually require less setup and install time. It would be a completely bolt on kit that would require little or no permanent mods, would not overwork the engine and wold be as simple and clean as possible (this is the way I build things as a RULE) Since I have a Ti, I can R&D the kit without issue and I suppose it'll work just the same for 318i and Z3 as well. I hope the cost can be kept to $2500-ish - a price point I would personally jump at if I were on the other side of the fence. SO let me know what you people think, if there is genuine interest I will do it. Last edited by angus; 07-18-2011 at 08:44 PM. | | | 07-18-2011, 04:36 PM | #2 | Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gulfport, Florida Posts: 3,208 | Quote: Originally Posted by angus I would like to gauge interest in a turbo kit. I currently build and sell a few very successful turbo kits for other cars, and with the cost of the DAS/C supercharger and the fact that it seems it's maker is not really interested in selling them, I figured maybe it is time for me to step in. What I am proposing is a simple intercooled system that will offer a 50-75HP gain (just like the DAS/C) and will actually require less setup and install time. It would be a completely bolt on kit that would require little or no permanent mods, would not overwork the engine and wold be as simple and clean as possible (this is the way I build things as a RULE) Since I have a Ti, I can R&D the kit without issue and I suppose it'll work just the same for 318i and Z3 as well. I hope the cost can be kept to $2500-ish - a price point I would personally jump at if I were on the other side of the fence. SO let me know what you people think, if there is genuine interest I will do it. | They can be done for your price or less and the power gains are much higher since the turbo is not stealing power from the crank pulley to spin the S/C. Biggest issues are oil pan turbo oil return line (Pan needs to be removed to install), CARB certs for emission states and tuning which I can connect you with through Mid-Night (Barrie has all the tunes for the I-4 (30, 42.8 and 60 pound injectors) which were done on my car as the test platform. If you want details I have some experience with this install and relaibility. | | | 07-18-2011, 06:03 PM | #3 | Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Elizabeth City, NC Posts: 3,877 | If I were looking for just a low boost (8psi) turbo system, would an intercooler be necessary? The DASC is non intercooled, correct? __________________ ~Dave~ 98 328ti Morea Grun slicktop 11 128i space gray slicktop 13 JGC WK2 Deep Cherry Search | RealOEM | | | 07-18-2011, 06:13 PM | #4 | Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gulfport, Florida Posts: 3,208 | Quote: Originally Posted by spidertri If I were looking for just a low boost (8psi) turbo system, would an intercooler be necessary? The DASC is non intercooled, correct? | Not necessary but it adds so much power. the charge temps off a DASC are so high. intake temps are 150 and go up to 200 at 15psi. this is why we must shoot meth on a DASC to use a chemical intercooler at higher boost psi. At 8psi the charge temps are very high and with a turbo and intercooler you can get the charge temps down to almost ambient. cooler charge temps make big HP. Also not pulling power off your crank pulley to turn the S/C is all HP to your flywheel. It is around 30-40% loss of HP to just turn the S/c to make your boost. I was so shocked at how much power a turbo made at the same boost psi compared to a S/C. It is a combo of intercooling and not needing to turn the S/c. I will never run a S/C again... So not adding a $125 part for intercooling is just a total waste of power. Also a turbo has much hotter charge temps then a S/C so you really need one. It is very easy to install a intercooler and the power gain is well worth it. Remember do not buy the bar and plate intercooler (Old design) buy the delta flow which is the best you can get and way better then any bar and plate system hands down. On a side note if you look at the Buick v6 Grand National and why that motor made so much power from the factory was because it came with a factory intercooler. Intercooling is a major power maker and should not be excluded from any set-up even at low boost. Call Nick G or ask Barrie at mid-night about this...It is something that is needed and is a cheep upgrade to make more HP. John S Last edited by xxxJohnBoyxxx; 07-18-2011 at 06:28 PM. | | | 07-18-2011, 08:39 PM | #5 | Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: VAN Posts: 71 | Quote: Originally Posted by spidertri If I were looking for just a low boost (8psi) turbo system, would an intercooler be necessary? The DASC is non intercooled, correct? | The charge temps will inherently be lower on a turbo than on that type of S/C - although the charge temps at 150-200 are not crazy high, they could be lower to make more power and more importantly avoid detonation, which given the relatively low compression of the M44 is not as great of an issue and I suspect this is why the DASC is OK at those charge temps. | | | 07-18-2011, 09:19 PM | #6 | Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gulfport, Florida Posts: 3,208 | Quote: Originally Posted by angus The charge temps will inherently be lower on a turbo than on that type of S/C - although the charge temps at 150-200 are not crazy high, they could be lower to make more power and more importantly avoid detonation, which given the relatively low compression of the M44 is not as great of an issue and I suspect this is why the DASC is OK at those charge temps. | Sorry don't want to be a party pooper but the M44 is not low compression it is 10:1 and can not handle a lot of boost without a chemical intercooler/octane raiser or race fuel. My opinion is 10psi is the max boost without race fuel or meth injection. You are 100% correct that low intake charge temps lower the detonation/ping of the engine. Intercooling and you might be able to squeeze 15psi out of it with a good tune John S | | | 07-18-2011, 11:01 PM | #7 | Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: VAN Posts: 71 | I was saying relatively low compared to some of the other motors that we turbocharge. I would not really consider boosting the M44 over 10 PSI anyway. I would think 5-6 PSI would be more like it, maybe 8 psi max - I am not proposing a kit here that will be DYNO KING, just a reliable HP increase. Personally I would think that a 50-60HP is a reasonable gain and $2500 is a reasonable price point that I would be interested in myself. Keep in mind that the beauty of the turbo kit is that if a person gets the setup, installs it on the stock motor and runs at 5-6 or even 8 psi for a while, they could easily later decide to upgrade the engine internals and boost it up to 15 or even 20 PSI or more. | | | 07-18-2011, 11:14 PM | #8 | Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Montreal Posts: 283 | a new DASC is too expensive, plus you'll have to upgrade a lot of other stuff to get good HP. I'm pretty sure you'll get plenty of interest in a plug and play turbo system. plug and play is the key.. and price, but you've mentionned that already. A canadian distributor is a good idea also. paying customs sucks. you two should team up ;-) Is Yoda's kit installed yet? traviss | | | 07-18-2011, 07:23 PM | #9 | Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Elizabeth City, NC Posts: 3,877 | Good info, thanks John. I was more curious than anything about why the DASC didn't have an intercooler. A basic turbo setup would definitely be fun on this car, so would a swap, lol. __________________ ~Dave~ 98 328ti Morea Grun slicktop 11 128i space gray slicktop 13 JGC WK2 Deep Cherry Search | RealOEM | | | 07-18-2011, 08:34 PM | #10 | Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: VAN Posts: 71 | The system I would build would be intercooled, if a person only wanted, say - 5-PSI then the intercooler could be optional and would cut the cost even more. | | | 07-22-2011, 07:26 AM | #11 | Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Portland Or Posts: 2,666 | The limitation from what I've seen is that the BMW computer has really aggressive programming compared to a lot of other cars, the computer does not balance the timing well under boost and the rising rate fuel regulator is not fine enough control to let the computer balance the charge well. It seems to be systemic of Bosch controlled engines.. The VIper survives because the V10 is a full fly by wire engine, and does a lot of tuning to keep itself in one piece, a side effect of that programming is the ability for the computer to adapt ot crazy fuel air ratios... Just some random thoughts.. Dave __________________ Dave - PDX 1995 318ti - Active Black and Tan. 2005 330xi - Mtech 1 - 6spd - Orient Blue/Black | | | 07-22-2011, 08:15 AM | #12 | Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gulfport, Florida Posts: 3,208 | ^^Correct Here is the issue with the RRFPR and a turbo and why the RRFPR works "fair" with the DASC. The DASC has linear boost that comes on slow and steady as RPM's increase. With a turbo the boost hits hard and quick. The stock coded Motronic 5.2 DME does not handle this well with a RRFPR. Don't believe me give it a try and find out for yourself. | | | 07-23-2011, 04:09 AM | #13 | Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Elkhart, IN Posts: 128 | On the Mazda Protege, disconnecting the vacuum line from the regulator is the way to go if the owner does not want to change to an aftermarket fuel rail and regulator. People have pushed up to 16psi boost with it that way. Would this be an option with the ti? The eBay turbo kit looks universal in more ways than just the piping and thats where the real value of having something made specific. Some of the smallest projects that keep sending you back to the hardware store can be daunting enough, but the last thing you want with a larger project like a turbo. For most people, this will be their first time and with out a good tune, its just going to blow their motor anyway. My previous experience boosting includes blowing the motor 3 times in the same car. After learning a **** load about tuning, now its pushing 30psi boost. Obviously all the difference when the requirement for a good "plug n play" kit is advertised. I dont think the discussion should be all about the fpr, more like about what kind of managment dedication this will come with. Its going to cost way more than the $1000 price difference between the 2 kits to rebuild the motor when it pops. | | | 07-23-2011, 09:15 AM | #14 | Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: VAN Posts: 71 | Quote: Originally Posted by signature sound On the Mazda Protege, disconnecting the vacuum line from the regulator is the way to go if the owner does not want to change to an aftermarket fuel rail and regulator. People have pushed up to 16psi boost with it that way. Would this be an option with the ti? The eBay turbo kit looks universal in more ways than just the piping and thats where the real value of having something made specific. Some of the smallest projects that keep sending you back to the hardware store can be daunting enough, but the last thing you want with a larger project like a turbo. For most people, this will be their first time and with out a good tune, its just going to blow their motor anyway. My previous experience boosting includes blowing the motor 3 times in the same car. After learning a **** load about tuning, now its pushing 30psi boost. Obviously all the difference when the requirement for a good "plug n play" kit is advertised. I dont think the discussion should be all about the fpr, more like about what kind of managment dedication this will come with. Its going to cost way more than the $1000 price difference between the 2 kits to rebuild the motor when it pops. | I do appreciate your input here, but no, pulling the vacuum line off the reg is not going to cut it, that would actually make things worse, thngs are a little different on a N/A-T car ( I assume you are talking about the mazdaspeed protege?) I cannot emphasize enough that I am trying to build a kit that will run low boost (READ "SAFE") and if a person so chooses, they can upgrade things to run higher boost later. | | | 07-23-2011, 11:24 AM | #15 | Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gulfport, Florida Posts: 3,208 | Are you saying that the current "$1050" kit is an updated version that actually is plug and play? The kit I have sitting here is not the same one posted in this thread and those pictures are outdates. Maybe the sellers pics are outdated? I caught many inconsistencies in the one picture: - the manifold has what appears to be a v-band W/G flange yet the 'gate in the pic has tial 38 style 2 bolt flange. Manifold is a 44mm v-band waste gate and the kit includes the 44mm waste gate - there is no W/G dump pictured (personally I would go for an internally gated turbo or if it were external I would plumb it back) Good luck with that. Another member tried a internal wastegate turbo and it would not fit. It is a very tight fit with just the small turbo. If you add the internal wastegate you have a turbo that won't fit. This is the reason the OBX manifold is a external waste gate style - the piping is all just universal bends, this is OK for some - as you stated it is easy to cut, although not everyone wants to do this and even less have a bead roller. The two 180deg U-bends are cut in the center to make them both short 90deg pipes and two 90deg pipes need to be trimmed. No bead roller needed, I use hair spray on the hose connection and they are good to 25psi so far - the fuel reg and gauges are just plain garbage. Not what this kit has. This kit has a OEM steer column top replacement with clip in gauge clusters that are trick, it is high quality. In all reality, I would probably pitch the gauges, turbo timer, fuel reg, boost controller and most of the lines and fittings, not only that but I would never use the gaskets supplied - I would probably be better off to just buy the manifold and then build my own piping and downpipe..I would pitch the tyrbo timer, RRFPR, Boost controller for a in cabin Gizmo), The down pipe is high quality 3" and a perfect fit so I would keep it and bush it down to your exhaust size which stock would be 2 1/4". I only use the manifole to head gasket and all other connections are machine so I use RTV Copper with no failures. I used the gaskets and they blew in 5,000 miles (Learned from that) But for a person who is interested in a kit they can bolt on in their driveway in a few hours this kit does not look good at all. Wrong picture, does not represent the kit well What I am talking about building is: - A simple complete yet effective kit that will bolt right on without cutting or making anything. Excellent go for it - Has basic fuel management that will support 4-6PSI (approx) My opinion is you need more boost. 4-6psi is not going to do $hit. Take it to 10psi - Also would have the ability to run more boost on a built motor with upgraded engine management. Proven no need to upgrade motor to add boost up to 15psi. There is a stock M44 in Canada running 20psi currently. You will need engine management The basic idea that I have is to do something that will provide a boost in power but not so much that people will risk blowing motors, there is simply no excuse for that these days with low boost systems - if you have a wideband installed to monitor your AFR and a careful ear to monitor knock there should be no problem. I and most others use the LM-2 and log our runs so we know exactly what is going on for tuning. I even log knock sensors so I can see the slightest ping, it is so sensitive it shows gear shifts on the ping sensor log I agree that programming the ECU to run larger injectors etc. is a great way to tune the car, but for low boost simplicity rules. Well we will just have to disagree on this. You will have drivability issues (pulsing) with part throttle boost situations. Best of luck. I'm not trying to shoot you down on everything just trying to share knowledge learned from a few years of R&D Last edited by xxxJohnBoyxxx; 07-23-2011 at 11:26 AM. | | | | | Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | | Posting Rules | You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | |