Rough idle for 40 seconds followed by white smoke

[applefan]

Hello - 96/318ic/175k miles/auto It all started with a rough idle on cold start for 40 to 60 seconds and then everything is normal (very famous problem in this forum with no knowN fix!, other than replacing everything under the hood)
Finally when I was revving up the engine one morning, noticed white smoke in the exhaust
Checked coolant level - its dropping for sure
Checked dipstick and oil filler cap - no signs of coolant in the oil
Exhaust has a smell of burning wood. Not sure if it smells like coolant, but doesn't smell like pure gasoline

Car is definitely losing coolant, although there is no leak in the cooling system

Can it be a blown head gasket? Is it possible for the coolant to enter in the combustion chamber before mixing up with oil. Coolant in the cylinders may explain why the rough idle for the fist 40 seconds of a cold start?

Any help/suggestion is greatly appreciated

[J!m]

Sounds like a bad head gasket to me.

Oil passages and water passages are around the cylinders and one (or more) of the water passages is now open to one (or more) of the cylinders.

If an oil passage opens to a cylinder, you burn a lot of oil.

If the water is open to the oil, you get water in oil (or vice-versa).

Based on what you are describing, you have a water passaage open to the cylinder.

Head gasket required, cooling system rebuild, proper bleeding after adding BMW coolant and distilled water mix... Do a search and you will find what you need to do it correctly.

[applefan]

Jim, thanks for the reply
I was always under the impression that a blown head gasket will cause coolant to mix up with engine oil. Thanks again for the explanation on this special situation

I did a complete cooling system rebuild 3 years ago and cooling system still going solid, so this time it's going to be just HG. Going to order HG kit from autohausaz Will be following Bentley manual

While I go that far, anything else should be replaced inside or outside the engine?

[J!m]

Jim, thanks for the reply
I was always under the impression that a blown head gasket will cause coolant to mix up with engine oil. Thanks again for the explanation on this special situation

There are actually three ways it can fail: water and oil mix; water in CC; oil in CC; inter-cylinder failure (small gasket area between #2 & #3 going bad allowing compression from one to leak into exhaust of the other for example). The last needs a leak down test as well as compression test of all cylinders to isolate, and can sometimes leak one way but not the other, which can look like bad rings in one cylinder...

I did a complete cooling system rebuild 3 years ago and cooling system still going solid, so this time it's going to be just HG. Going to order HG kit from autohausaz Will be following Bentley manual

I hate the Bentley manual. It is best used as a wheel chock or to absorb oil spills. Chilton is the best of the 'generic' manuals, but still leaves a lot to be desired. You can find the BMW TIS manual on-line to read (free) and I suggest you do so. I think you can also print pages.

While I go that far, anything else should be replaced inside or outside the engine?

The bores should be carefully checked. More than 0.001" wear at top ring reversal is cause for opening the bore (honing) and fitting over-sized rings and/or pistons if the wear is excessive. That is assuming you want to keep the car for another 100K or more. If you cannot measure accurately (you need a bore gage) see if you can still see the honing marks in that top ring reversal area. If so, you are probably fine.

Have the head checked for flatness while it is off. If it is out of allowance, it will cause the HG to fail again.

Maybe consider a timing chain, but they are not prone to excessive stretch on these cars as far as I am aware. Reassembly and reverifying cam timing will make up for any stretch and 'pep up' the engine as will the new head gasket.

I think you need new head bolts too. If I am not mistaken, these are torque angle spec bolts (the S52 is for sure). So you tighten to a specific torque and then rotate a specific number of degrees after that. Because of this they stretch, and I think are allowed to be re-used once (others may know for sure) but it is generally a good idea to just get new ones, clean and oil the threads (chase the threads in the block too!) and torque properly to prevent the gasket from failing.

Also: MAKE SURE YOU TAKE THE HEAD OFF FOLLOWING THE TORQUE SEQUENCE BACKWARDS to avoid possibly warping the head during removal. It is a common mistake, and easily avoided.

Others can chime in with more if there is anything...

[cooljess76]

Best way to diagnose a BHG is to perform a leakdown test. You can also test the coolant for exhaust gasses. Your local auto parts store should sell both test kits. Best of luck to ya.

[applefan]

Good point. Thanks Cooljess

[applefan]

I am trying to get these two special BMW tools for the Head Gasket work
11 2 300
11 3 240

Called dealer and cost is around $500 each!!! I read some where people using a tool in the tool box that came with the car. Any advice? I would rather give to a mechanic than spending $1000 for this tool + HG kit and all my work

[cooljess76]

Not sure which tools those are, but if you need cam blocks the Haynes manual has a template to make your own on page 2A-3. There's also a thread in the knowledge base with instructions on how to make the rigid timing chain tensioner and flywheel locking pin.

Edit; here you go:
http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11334

[applefan]

Not sure which tools those are, but if you need cam blocks the Haynes manual has a template to make your own on page 2A-3. There's also a thread in the knowledge base with instructions on how to make the rigid timing chain tensioner and flywheel locking pin.

Edit; here you go:
http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11334


Awesome!! Thanks cooljess. You saved me a lot of money and trouble

[applefan]

I did a compression test over the weekend and all 4 cylinders come out with the same reading around 140 ( don't remember the unit) on 4 cranks.
I may need to try another method of test to make sure it is absolutely a BHG ?

While I was pulling the spark plug out, noticed the plug #2 was filled with oil till the connector end. Looks like I need to replace the Valve Head gasket, but that doesn't explain the rough idle and white smoke?

[cooljess76]

I did a compression test over the weekend and all 4 cylinders come out with the same reading around 140 ( don't remember the unit) on 4 cranks.
I may need to try another method of test to make sure it is absolutely a BHG ?

While I was pulling the spark plug out, noticed the plug #2 was filled with oil till the connector end. Looks like I need to replace the Valve Head gasket, but that doesn't explain the rough idle and white smoke?

Dude I think you may have dodged a bullet. Yes it does explain the rough idle. Your engine was misfiring because the plug wire was submerged in oil. This is a common issue on these engines. You need to replace your valve cover gasket and spark plug seals. IIRC, they're sold as a kit. Now theres a couple things you should do. Hopefully you soaked up the oil with a shop towel BEFORE you removed the spark plug to do the compression test. If not, all that oil is now in the combustion chamber and your car will smoke like crazy, probably foul the spark plug, possibly the o2 sensors and gunk up the catalytic converter. You can remove that spark plug and crank the engine over a couple times. This will blow most of the oil out of the cylinder. Next you're gonna want to clean the oil out of the plug wire connector. Best way to do this is to use brake cleaner. Don't use carb cleaner as it will dry out the rubber. Spray it out really good with brake cleaner and allow it to dry completely. TAKE A FEW PIECES OF MASKING TAPE AND NUMBER THE PLUG WIRES ONE AT A TIME.

When you remove the valve cover to replace the gasket and spark plug seals, there's a hose towards the back on the driver's side of the valve cover that goes to the CCV. Remove that hose from the valve cover, then spray some brake cleaner through the orifice that the hose attaches to on the valve cover. It gets gunked up over time.

When you reinstall the valve cover, double and triple check that the spark plug seals don't shift or fall out of position. You want those things to seal up really nicely. And finally, it's very important to torque the valve cover down exactly as outlined in the manual. If you don't already have one, buy a Bentley manual. At the very least, buy a Haynes manual if the Bentley is out of your budget. Use a torque wrench, the cylinder head can easily become damaged if you don't.

[J!m]

Finally when I was revving up the engine one morning, noticed white smoke in the exhaust
Checked coolant level - its dropping for sure
Checked dipstick and oil filler cap - no signs of coolant in the oil
Exhaust has a smell of burning wood. Not sure if it smells like coolant, but doesn't smell like pure gasoline

Car is definitely losing coolant, although there is no leak in the cooling system



Let's keep these details in mind. The oily plug does not help the situation; however there may still be a problem, particularly if the cooling system is only a few years old...

[applefan]

Cooljess and Jim. thanks, You both have a point . I think cooljess, your theory explains the rough idle issue . The oil leak need to to be fixed for sure. Missing coolant still bothers me. I still suspect the BHG for the coolant missing issue. Is there any other test I can do to rule out a BHG?
The guy at local autozone showed me a dye that I can put in the coolant to detect leak, but not sure if that will help if the coolant gents into the CC ? You think the color of the exhaust will change if I do this test ?

[cooljess76]

Generally a compression test is not what you would do to diagnose a BHG. Instead, you'd want to perform a leakdown test. If oil was leaking into the combustion chamber, you'd see bluish-white smoke. If coolant was getting in, you'd see cloudy white smoke and notice a sweet smell. I've seen the dye test however I've never tried it. I'm assuming that they dye has a chemical reaction to exhaust gasses and the coolant will change colors if exhaust gasses are detected. I could be wrong though.

FWIW, I was losing coolant for almost a year. It started out, just a little at a time, then it got to the point that I was losing almost a gallon a day. That's how I became so good at bleeding the system, lol. Everyone was telling me that I had a BHG although my car was running great, no smoke, no coolant-oil mix, and I had put over 10k miles on it since the coolant loss was fisrt noticed. Turns out I had a hairline crack between my radiator and expansion tank which progressively got worse. Coolant was leaking out so slowly that it would evaporate before it had the chance to even drip. I found the leak by rigging up a schrader valve to an old radiator cap and using a bicycle pump I pressurized the system to about 5 psi. The car was parked in my garage so there was no distracting noise. I traced the hissing down to a crack between the expansion tank and the side of the radiator. So yes, you may have two separate issues going on and the coolant loss needs to be identified.

Another thing to consider is the possibility that maybe you purchased some bad gas. You can remedy this by adding a can of seafoam to a full tank or at least 8 gallons of fuel. The seafoam costs about 7 bucks a can at your local auto parts store and it will mix with any moisture in your fuel system and make it combustable.

[applefan]

How do I do a leak down test ? is it something I can do myself or better done outside for accurate result?
does the leakdown test procedure in the link below explains the correct procedure?
http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/techarticles/Borrowed/mult_engine_rebuild-1.htm

[cooljess76]

How do I do a leak down test ? is it something I can do myself or better done outside for accurate result?
does the leakdown test procedure in the link below explains the correct procedure?
http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/techarticles/Borrowed/mult_engine_rebuild-1.htm

That's it. Harbor Freight sells a leak down tester for 40 bucks. The test is a little more involved than a basic compression test. You're going to have to manually turn the engine over by hand to position each piston at TDC. I use a dial indicator with an extended probe and a spark plug adapter, but that's really only necessary for critical work such as timing/degreeing cams. Instead to find TDC of each piston you can simply use a long skinny object such as a long bladed screwdriver or a piece of a wire coat hanger. Don't drop a pen in there or anything short as the distance from the piston to the top of the spark plug hole is pretty deep. Put the car in neutral and set the parking brake. Remove the spark plugs, this will allow the crankshaft to turn with slightly less resistance. Then take your long skinny object and lower it in the hole until it rests on the piston. Don't just drop it in there, hold onto it until you feel it touch the piston. Now you're going to need a big socket and a breaker bar to turn the crank pulley CLOCKWISE. Watch the object VERY CLOSELY as you turn the crankshaft. You'll see it move up as the piston travels up, it will pause at the top of the stroke and then drop down as the piston goes down. You want to stop turning the crank at the very beginning of that pause. Note it takes two rotations to complete a stroke, so if you're doing the test and air just dumps out of the cylinder or it won't pressurize, the valves are open and you need to give it another rotation. Then you're going to pressurize the cylinder to whatever the test says and measure the pressure as it leaks down. Repeat this on each cylinder.

[applefan]

Here is how the exhaust smoke looks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi_aW-nAu_g

[applefan]

another video
This isn't as bad as the fist one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4xA5fO5B1Y

[cooljess76]

^^^Yeah that doesn't look good. Still keepin my fingers crossed for you.

[J!m]

How does the white smoke smell? It LOOKS like coolant steam, and if it smells like maple syrup, it is coolant.

If it smells like burnt rice from the bottom of the pan, it is oil. But, generally oil is a bit more blue in color in the exhaust. It would be easier to tell color in person, but that looks more white than blue.

How much oil do you use in 3000 miles? More than a quart? If so it could be oil, but it is more likley an oil leak at this point... (that makes it harder to pin down)

You did mention losing water, so take Jess' advice and do a pressure test of the coolant system, or have a local garage do it for you.

[applefan]

How does the white smoke smell? It LOOKS like coolant steam, and if it smells like maple syrup, it is coolant.

If it smells like burnt rice from the bottom of the pan, it is oil. But, generally oil is a bit more blue in color in the exhaust. It would be easier to tell color in person, but that looks more white than blue.

How much oil do you use in 3000 miles? More than a quart? If so it could be oil, but it is more likley an oil leak at this point... (that makes it harder to pin down)

You did mention losing water, so take Jess' advice and do a pressure test of the coolant system, or have a local garage do it for you.

going to stop by at harbor freight tonight to get the kit. will do the leak down test this weekend.

Some other observation: I tried to start it this morning and to my surprise, there were no rough idle. It was giving rough idle last night (That's after the oil cleanup from plug #2 over the weekend), but not this morning, may need to observe it few more days to see if the rough idle gone for sure
So I drove it to work today( 45 miles). Was watching the exhaust and temperature gauge all way along. The only time I saw smoke from exhaust was when I was punching the gas pedal above 4000 rpm on a freeway entrance ramp, uphill. There was no smoke at all when cruising at 70mph and at idle. Temp gauge goes up till 12 o'clock and stayed there all along the drive

[applefan]

going to stop by at harbor freight tonight to get the kit. will do the leak down test this weekend.

Some other observation: I tried to start it this morning and to my surprise, there were no rough idle. It was giving rough idle last night (That's after the oil cleanup from plug #2 over the weekend), but not this morning, may need to observe it few more days to see if the rough idle gone for sure
So I drove it to work today( 45 miles). Was watching the exhaust and temperature gauge all way along. The only time I saw smoke from exhaust was when I was punching the gas pedal above 4000 rpm on a freeway entrance ramp, uphill. There was no smoke at all when cruising at 70mph and at idle. Temp gauge goes up till 12 o'clock and stayed there all along the drive

Jim, I usually change oil every 5000 miles, its around 1 quart less when I empty the used oil

[applefan]

Update:
Over the weekend, I was all set to do the leak down test /radiator pressure test and the chemical test to check the exhaust gas presence in the coolant.
started with the chemical test. rev up to 6000 rpm, no white smoke.
In fact no smoke at all. exhaust was perfectly clear.
Have no idea how it disappeared. dunno if it was because of weather, it was 100+ degrees out side Saturday. Tried many time Saturday and Sunday too. No white smoke.

I end up replacing the valve cover gasket and spark plugs yesterday.Drove it to work today; Car runs much better, although the rough idle at cold start still there. Duration of the rough idle is much less ( may be 10 seconds or less) compared to a a minute or more before

Going to watch the coolant level from now on and will take it from there

[J!m]

Oil consumption seems right- maybe a bit low for 5000 miles even. I think I used a quart every 3000 or so. Check the level at every gas fill-up.

I was thinking the PCV might be clogged up a bit. I think it is on the rocker cover near the front (someone who still has an M44 please help my memory!).

It is a long-ish shot, but maybe this is a problem.

I would also check all the vacuum hoses for leaks. Temperature changes cause hoses to swell and/or contract and this can close off cracks or make them smaller. The ICV may also need a cleaning- I don't remember if you did that already or not...

At least for the moment, the head gasket seems to be less likely...

[98318ti]

CCCV is middle back near firewall on the intake manifold. Black round thingy.

[applefan]

i replaced CCCV two years ago. It was making noise ( very confusing noice as if it was coming from the motor). May be its clogged again ?
ICV was cleaned as part of an attempt to solve the rough idle at cold start issue

[cooljess76]

Bad piston rings will cause you to burn oil. In your case I think it was a few issues contributing to the problem. First off, the plug wire being submerged in oil would definitely cause a misfire. Over a long enough period of time it could've damaged the plug wire or even the coil, which could explain it still having a rough idle. If oil was getting past the spark plug and dripping down into the combustion chamber, that could explain some of the smoke, although in that video it looked more like white billowy smoke. Moisture in the gas could also cause a rough idle, smoke and if bad enough could lead to a blown head gasket, bent valves and other things. I recommended running a can of seafoam through your fuel tank with at least 8 gallons of gas. If you hear any hissing, particularly behind the intake manifold, it's a good indication that your CCV is bad. The CCV has a hose that runs to the rear driver's side of the valve cover. Sometimes the orifice on the valve cover that the hose attaches to gets clogged up with gunk which in turn will cause excessive pressure build up in the crank case and cylinder head. This can also lead to oil loss and burning. A good indication of that orifice being clogged would be if you see oil residue in the throttle body, intake boots or air filter. I recommended cleaning out that orifice with brake cleaner when you had the valve cover off.Have you replaced the oil filter housing o-rings and gasket yet? My clubsport dumped about a quart of oil over the course of only a couple days when the o-rings went bad. Like I said before, the coolant loss isn't something to ignore. You probably have a crack in your radiator or one of the plastic coolant fittings causing coolant to slowly leak and evaporate and letting air into the system. Does your heater blow hot air? Really hot? If too much air gets into the system, you'll get air-lock which will prevent the coolant from circulating which will lead to the coolant evaporating inside the engine causing even more air and pressure to build up and eventually a blown headgasket.

[applefan]

Jess, I cleaned the plug wire with the cleaner specifically meant for that purpose. Bought from autozone(don't remember the brand)

If it is the a bad plug wire or coil, it should give problem all along the way right ? That's what confuses me. This morning, it gave rough idle for a few seconds, may be less than 10 seconds, and that's it. Car runs great afterwards. no more rough idle nothing.
Plenty of power (yes what a 1.9L engine can produce :-) ) makes no crazy noise etc

another FYI - I did a complete cooling system overhaul , 2 or 3 years ago. I followed the DIY in this forum , replaced 2 plastic pipes, radiator, water pump, hoses etc. Car has been running great since then, until this rough idle issue

[applefan]

Jess, I will check if the heater blow hot air. It's been a while since I used or checked heater for its functionality. Thanks

[cooljess76]

I've seen coolant leaks so small that you can't easily detect where they're coming from. No drops in the driveway or in the bottom of the bumper underpanel. The coolant evaporates quickly on the outside of a hot radiator or engine block. A good way to check the cooling system is to pressurize it and listen for leaks. You have to park the car in a closed environment with no ambient noise. I took an old radiator cap, drilled a hole in it that was slightly smaller than a tire valve stem. Then I pushed the valve stem through the hole, fastened the radiator cap onto the radiator and pumped it up to 5psi with a bicycle pump. I heard it hissing and traced it down to a hairline crack between the radiator and expansion tank.

This may or may not work on your car, but if you take it up to 5 psi and it holds pressure then you could rule out a leak. Also, check the carpet by the heater core and see if it feels moist. Cracked heater cores are a common issue on old cars. If you don't hear any hissing, still look around because you might see coolant seeping out of the engine or one of the coolant lines somewhere. If you start your car and notice smoke after you've pressurized the system, maybe you do have a BHG if the coolant somehow got pushed into the combustion chamber when you pressurized it. I wouldn't take it past 5psi though, you don't want to make things worse by overpressurizing it.

[applefan]

Jess Thanks for all the help.

I checked heater this evening. It blows hot air even while the car is idling.
I rented a radiator pressure tester from autozone. Will use that to compress and do the test you described above

[applefan]

Another update:

I tried a cold start this morning and evening ( didn't drive), there were no rough idle. I will wait for few more days and few more starts before confirming the rough idle issue fixed for sure. Looks like the valve cover gasket and spark plug replacement , along with the cable/cluster cleaning did the trick.

Thanks Jess and Jim ( and anybody else I missed mentioning) for your valuable help!

I filled up coolant again and going to keep and eye on it. Will get to the rest of the tests after confirming a genuine coolant disappearance

[tiFreak]

I wouldn't take it past 5psi though, you don't want to make things worse by overpressurizing it.

a lot of cooling systems run about 15 psi, not sure what the ti system runs at but it should be good at least up until that. I've seen cars with coolant leaks that can hold 5 psi no problem, sometimes you need to go over that to see the leak

[cooljess76]

Yeah, I think out radiator caps are set to relieve at 15psi. So between 5 and 10 should be fine.

[applefan]

Update: every 100 miles trip I make, coolant level goes down an inch or two ( on the radiator reserve tank). also when I fill up the tank all the way, I can see the exhaust puffing white steam. I am going to bite the bullet and change the head gasket this weekend. I already have most of the parts and tools. The HG kit I bought is VictorReinz. I saw some posts saying, use everything int the VR kit, except the VR head gasket itself and buy a genuine BMW head gasket instead. Is that still true or that was a problem in the past ?

[applefan]

Another interesting finding : - Last night I was checking the coolant level and it was all the way at the bottom of the tank. Was going to fill up again and when took the radiator cap off, coolant came back to the tank all the way to the top of the tank. didn't fill any coolant, just closed the cap and when started this morning, no more rough idle.

Does this mean the excessive pressure in the cooling system causing the coolant to leak into the cylinder overnight and causing the rough idle?

[J!m]

Have you tried another cap on the tank yet?

Sounds like (from that description) it is not working properly.:confused:

[applefan]

no I haven't tried another cap. Will try another cap tonight. Jim, Thanks . I never thought about it.
didn't know the cap regulates pressure either.

[cooljess76]

Another interesting finding : - Last night I was checking the coolant level and it was all the way at the bottom of the tank. Was going to fill up again and when took the radiator cap off, coolant came back to the tank all the way to the top of the tank. didn't fill any coolant, just closed the cap and when started this morning, no more rough idle.

Does this mean the excessive pressure in the cooling system causing the coolant to leak into the cylinder overnight and causing the rough idle?

The dye kit you purchased was supposed to be used with this tool, not poured into the radiator:
http://compare.ebay.com/like/230812272738?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y

http://www.handsontools.com/Lisle-75500-Combustion-Leak-Detector_p_5124.html?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=CSE&utm_term=Lisle%2075500%20Combustion%20Leak%20Detector&utm_campaign=BROI

Did you do a leakdown test? How about a radiator pressure test? You definitely have a lot of air in the system and it needs to be bled properly.

[ryszardsh]

If you look the cap it will be marked at the pressure it is supposed to hold - 5.5 Bar or something like that. It does so with a spring and a gasket, hole in one or wear on the other and pressure on the cooling system is incorrectly held.

RAS

[applefan]

This is exactly what I rented from Autozone along with the blue liquid that changes color. did this test 2 weeks ago - turned out negative. ( the dye to pour into the coolant was different. i didn't buy that )

The dye kit you purchased was supposed to be used with this tool, not poured into the radiator:
http://compare.ebay.com/like/230812272738?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y



http://www.handsontools.com/Lisle-75500-Combustion-Leak-Detector_p_5124.html?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=CSE&utm_term=Lisle%2075500%20Combustion%20Leak%20Detector&utm_campaign=BROI

Did you do a leakdown test? How about a radiator pressure test? You definitely have a lot of air in the system and it needs to be bled properly.


didn't do the leakdown test and radiator pressure test, as the exhaust gas presence test turned out negative.

[cooljess76]

Do the radiator pressure test, I bet you'll find something. Probably a cracked radiator. Follow up with a few cycles of bleeding the system:

http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=27983

When you're doing the radiator pressure test, do it in a closed environment such as a quiet garage so you can hear and track down any hissing from air escaping the system.

[applefan]

Have you tried another cap on the tank yet?

Sounds like (from that description) it is not working properly.:confused:

I bought a new radiator cap from Kragen last night. They didn't have the 30psi one, but 20 psi.
The existing one rated 30psi ( this came with the Behr radiator I bought from ebay 2 years ago) , but thought will give the 20 psi a try

There were no rough idle this morning. Drove it to work , 45 miles, coolant level is just above the mid of the tank ( marked CALD?), unlike all the way down when using the old cap.
fingers crossed....

[applefan]

I bought a radiator cap from the dealer with the correct spec ( 30psi), coolant level went all the way down on the reservoir tank. - So it doesn't look like a bad cap issue

Next in the list- Radiator pressure test:
Went to autozone . None of the radiator pressure tester kits have a matching cap for BMW

I saw one kit at harbor freight for $80 . Anybody tried if this works on a BMW? - review of this product doesn't look good either.

[cooljess76]

Sigh...

Why not just do what I said and use your old cap now that you've wasted money on a new cap. get a shrader valve from your local tire shop(they'll probably give you one for free) or go to your local bicycle shop and ask for a tubeless rim valve stem(they're made by Mavic wheels and cost a few bucks), then drill a hole in the old radiator cap slightly smaller than the valve stem, insert the valve through the hole in the cap and use a bicycle pump to pressurize it up to 5-10 psi. Throwing random parts at something is never a good route to take. It's not my money so I shouldn't even care, but I just feel like I'm wasting my breath posting this stuff.

[applefan]

Jess, trust me, I am more pissed than you can imagine for wasting that money on dealer.
Somehow, the radiator cap misled me. Back on track with the radiator pressure test with your trick. Dunno if I will be able to get all that working without a leak, but , I will give it a try anyway since its not going to cost me anything at this point.

On another note, with the coolant all the way down with the 30psi cap, I can smell coolant on the exhaust, along with white smoke, when rev up to 4000+ rpm. So my assumption is that the pressurized cooling system causing the coolant to leak into the cylinders causing the rough idle and white smoke. This also explains why there is no white smoke when the radiator cap is open (this was evident when there were absolutely no white smoke while doing the exhaust gas presence test in the coolant with radiator cap open)

[pdxmotorhead]

DO THE F-in LEAKDOWN!!!!! The die does NOT always work. Dont come back with out the leak down numbers!

:)


FYI take the spark plugs out when you pressure test a cooling system, I've seen people Hydraulic a engine with a cooling system tester.

Also if you have a weak head gasket the pressure test can finish blowing the gasket for you...

Order of testing,
1. Compression test.
2. Leakdown
3. Then start the other odd tests.
4. Then start throwing parts at it. LOL

Dave

[applefan]

DO THE F-in LEAKDOWN!!!!! The die does NOT always work. Dont come back with out the leak down numbers!

:)


FYI take the spark plugs out when you pressure test a cooling system, I've seen people Hydraulic a engine with a cooling system tester.

Also if you have a weak head gasket the pressure test can finish blowing the gasket for you...

Order of testing,
1. Compression test.
2. Leakdown
3. Then start the other odd tests.
4. Then start throwing parts at it. LOL

Dave

Dave, I did the compression test already. negative. I got a reading of 170 or above on all 4 cylinders

As I said in my previous post. This happens only when the cooling system is pressurized or better yet, over pressurized :)

I am leaning towards what Jess suggested, as that will recreate the situation with the engine off

[pdxmotorhead]

OK, but WHEN one cylinder fills with water,,, LOL

ALWAYS leakdown BEFORE pressure test, the leakdown will force coolant or bubbles out of the radiator cap most of the time if you have a blown gasket and its pushing water OUT of the cylinder if there is a problem instead of into the engine.

A leakdown takes the same amount of time as a compression test.
(Once youve done it a time or two.) Its a brilliant way to tell how a motor is internally.

BTW an intermittent loss of coolant sometimes is a cracked head. The leakdown finds those too... :)

Good luck, keep us posted, its amazing sometimes how stuff turns up in these adventures.

Dave

[cooljess76]

DO THE F-in LEAKDOWN!!!!! The die does NOT always work. Dont come back with out the leak down numbers!

:)


FYI take the spark plugs out when you pressure test a cooling system, I've seen people Hydraulic a engine with a cooling system tester.

Also if you have a weak head gasket the pressure test can finish blowing the gasket for you...

Order of testing,
1. Compression test.
2. Leakdown
3. Then start the other odd tests.
4. Then start throwing parts at it. LOL

Dave

Amen! :biggrin: I felt like I was talking to the wall, glad you chimed in as I was about to throw in the towel.

[applefan]

Ok here is the update. while I was taking out the spark plugs for the leak down test, did a simple test. dropped a small cloth tied to single strand copper wire. Cylinder #1 , 3 and 4 came out dry. Cylinder #2 was soaked in coolant. No more tests. I pulled the head out. ready for the head gasket job. took a picture of the block with the old gasket and another picture of block and head after a basic cleanup. More cleaning on the way.

Head gasket doesn't looks burned, cylinder head looks intact. no cracks or wrapping as far as I can see, but I could be wrong :)
Should I sent it to machine shop ?

[applefan]

here is a better picture of the cylinder head

[cooljess76]

Bummer man. Well at least now you know for sure. Pelicanparts has a good writeup in their technical article section. I know for sure they covered I6 engines, but it should be really similar to the I4's. As far as taking the head to a machine shop, ALWAYS take it to a machine shop. At the very least they'll check it for flatness. There's no way you'd be able to see it with a naked eye, but these things need to be level within a .0001th of an inch. You could almost bet that a cylinder head pushing 150k on the clock is going to be slightly out of spec. It would really suck to get everything back together just to have the same thing happen a couple thousand miles down the road. I've seen it happen before. Spend a few more bucks and do it right.

BTW, there's a guy down in costa mesa who does pretty awesome machine work:

ch37NBkvTrs

[BlackBMWs]

Nice video, thanks for sharing this Jess.

Applefan, (or anyone) for your head gasket replacement, which references or DIYs did you end up finding valuable? I read Bentley, Chilton and TIS earlier in the thread. I did read through the Pelican DIY for the I6.

Looks like a straight forward process. Lots of good info in this thread. :cool:

[applefan]

Nice video, thanks for sharing this Jess.

Applefan, (or anyone) for your head gasket replacement, which references or DIYs did you end up finding valuable? I read Bentley, Chilton and TIS earlier in the thread. I did read through the Pelican DIY for the I6.

Looks like a straight forward process. Lots of good info in this thread. :cool:

I was following Bently and this link
http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/s/view.pl?1/00/89/25

Like you said, its very straight forward. Bently lists the sequence + used plenty of common sense :) I did the cooling system rebuild few years ago, so it was a piece of cake for me to get to the engine.

I forgot to note down the direction of rotation for the M44, so i used this link below

http://bmwrepairhelp.blogspot.com/2011/09/how-to-remove-cylinder-head-on-2005-bmw_7316.html

btw,wanted to mention this. it may help somebody:
- this speed wrench I bought from Harbor freight was my best friend for this work, specially to unbolt the exhaust manifold, head bolt, what not..
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-8-eighth-inch-drive-speed-socket-wrench-4432.html

[applefan]

Bummer man. Well at least now you know for sure. Pelicanparts has a good writeup in their technical article section. I know for sure they covered I6 engines, but it should be really similar to the I4's. As far as taking the head to a machine shop, ALWAYS take it to a machine shop. At the very least they'll check it for flatness. There's no way you'd be able to see it with a naked eye, but these things need to be level within a .0001th of an inch. You could almost bet that a cylinder head pushing 150k on the clock is going to be slightly out of spec. It would really suck to get everything back together just to have the same thing happen a couple thousand miles down the road. I've seen it happen before. Spend a few more bucks and do it right.

BTW, there's a guy down in costa mesa who does pretty awesome machine work:

ch37NBkvTrs

Jess, thanks for the advise on Machine shop. Costa mesa is way too far for me. know anybody in the Northridge/Van nuys area? There are so many auto shops in that area

[applefan]

any recommendation for cleaning the cylinder head and the block ?
im using scotch brite with water, but not getting very clean

[cooljess76]

any recommendation for cleaning the cylinder head and the block ?
im using scotch brite with water, but not getting very clean
AUTOMOTIVE MACHINE SHOP. They'll either thermal clean it or ultrasonically clean it. The cylinder head should have a perfectly flat close-to-mirror finish. You hit it with a scotchbrite pad or drag it across your workbench and it's gonna leak.

[BlackBMWs]

Ok here is the update. while I was taking out the spark plugs for the leak down test, did a simple test. dropped a small cloth tied to single strand copper wire. Cylinder #1 , 3 and 4 came out dry. Cylinder #2 was soaked in coolant.

Simple test, I like it. I haven't had a whole lot of time as of late to wrench. So, I have had a rough start/idle since blowing my radiator on my 97 Sport a few months ago. I suspected then I may have a HG/head issue, but have not had time to diagnose.

Today, I pulled the plugs and pushed a piece of paper towel on the end of looped 10ga wire. Cyl 1 came out soaked in coolant. :frown: All other cylinders were dry.

No hurry for me, so I will start collecting the renewal parts and seek a good machine shop in the Sacramento area to inspect/renew the head. It has 182k on it. I'll also look at the yards this weekend for another M44 for a candidate replacement head to renew to have ready for a swap and gain some insight on pulling the cams without busting them.

Any difference on M44 motors between the Sedan/Coupes vs the Ti's? I spotted a couple in the area. Asking around for a quality machine shop for inspection/resurfacing in the Sacramento area. Please advise if anyone knows of one please.

Thanks to Ed, I have all the hoses and most gaskets for the rest of the cooling and vacumm system renewal.

What is interesting is that the HG leak did not affect it passing CA SMOG testing. I had it tested last Thursday and it was well below avg numbers.

I appreciate the info in this thread as I've been wondering about my new rough idle/tough starting. :cool:

[applefan]

Simple test, I like it. I haven't had a whole lot of time as of late to wrench. So, I have had a rough start/idle since blowing my radiator on my 97 Sport a few months ago. I suspected then I may have a HG/head issue, but have not had time to diagnose.

Today, I pulled the plugs and pushed a piece of paper towel on the end of looped 10ga wire. Cyl 1 came out soaked in coolant. :frown: All other cylinders were dry.

No hurry for me, so I will start collecting the renewal parts and seek a good machine shop in the Sacramento area to inspect/renew the head. It has 182k on it. I'll also look at the yards this weekend for another M44 for a candidate replacement head to renew to have ready for a swap and gain some insight on pulling the cams without busting them.

Any difference on M44 motors between the Sedan/Coupes vs the Ti's? I spotted a couple in the area. Asking around for a quality machine shop for inspection/resurfacing in the Sacramento area. Please advise if anyone knows of one please.

Thanks to Ed, I have all the hoses and most gaskets for the rest of the cooling and vacumm system renewal.

What is interesting is that the HG leak did not affect it passing CA SMOG testing. I had it tested last Thursday and it was well below avg numbers.

I appreciate the info in this thread as I've been wondering about my new rough idle/tough starting. :cool:

Nice! I am glad my test method helped someone else!!
My advise will be to stop driving the car ASAP.

took my M44 cyl head to the machine shop today. Had a deal to get it rebuild for $275, but one of the senior guy took a close look at it. there is a small crack on the head, right on Cyl#2. Dunno if the crack caused he leak or leak caused the crack. One or the other, but I am in the look out for another cyl head. If anybody selling in the so cal area, let me know

Jess, Your good man, unless I listened to your advice, I would have put everything back on a cracked head

Take a look at the pink mark, near cyl#2 That's it!

[cooljess76]

Aw man, that sucks dude. Sorry to hear that, but glad you found it before install. If you don't mind me asking, how much did they charge to inspect it? I'm probably going to hit up my junkyard sometime this week, I'll BOLO.

[applefan]

Jess, No they didn't charge me anything for inspection. May be because I gave them go ahead to do the resurfacing and vavle jobe for $275, before finding out the crack. If Its just resurfacing its very cheap, I think it was $35, but I have to take the cams and valves out myself.

[BlackBMWs]

Applefan, did you did find or reference a list of typical renewal parts for the head renewal? Also after resurfacing, are you using a standard standard thickness head gasket? I can't imagine it would make a difference unless there was a lot of material removed.

Thanks! :cool:

[pdxmotorhead]

OK, so i gotta say it... Why put a rebuilt head on a used bottom end, this was common years ago when the bottom end of a motor would outlast 3 sets of heads, but these days unless the bottom end is < 100K or better yet 80 K miles I'd pull the whole motor and rebuild or put a low mileage used motor in and drive it.

My experience is that motors with over 100K the block is usually as warped as the head when you remove it... about 8 times out of ten a newly rebuilt head on top of a tired bottom end = < 20K life and blooey...

I tried this on many motors, shop I used to work at we would NOT warantee anything when this was done too many returns and mad customers.

If nothing else the top of the block needs to be cleaned (I used a chemical cleaner) and checked with a precision straight edge.

Change the cam-chain guides while your in there...

Cheers.
Dave

[BlackBMWs]

Dave, I hear you. Thanks for the feedback as I've been mulling over how much life I want out of this motor vs prepping a fresh rebuild. This car was targetted to be my other lite daily driver, sharing duties with my 318ic Vert.

I wondered about the flatness of the surface on the block. 188k on the current motor. I've been debating just pulling it all as it will need a clutch soon and it's easy to pull motor and tranny out at once. If I did that, I'd rebuild that motor. Also now looking for a used M44 motor, found one for $700 about 60 miles away, 192k. Posted a few questions, but still looking. Not interested at this point for a M52 or S52 swap.

I did have good luck on a rebuilt head for my 533i/M30 with 150k, I never expected to double the mileage on that motor, but did with no issues and still running strong.

On my 325i, I picked it up for the body with a blown HG. I swapped motors with a recent M50 rebuild with low miles. Quite lucky and happy with that motor for $350.

Applefan, I don't mean to hijack your thread. :rolleyes:

Thanks again for the feedback and having me enteratin options... Cheers! :cool:

[BlackBMWs]

OK, so i gotta say it... Why put a rebuilt head on a used bottom end, this was common years ago when the bottom end of a motor would outlast 3 sets of heads, but these days unless the bottom end is < 100K or better yet 80 K miles I'd pull the whole motor and rebuild or put a low mileage used motor in and drive it.

Dave

Dave, thanks for the nudge. Found a donor M44 from a rolled 318ti Sport.

http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp105/BlackBMWs/BMW%20318ti/1997%20318ti%20Sport/M44%20engine%20swap/Donor%20engine/480881b1.jpg

I'll swap when I get a free weekend. :cool:

[applefan]

Dave, thanks for the nudge. Found a donor M44 from a rolled 318ti Sport.

http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp105/BlackBMWs/BMW%20318ti/1997%20318ti%20Sport/M44%20engine%20swap/Donor%20engine/480881b1.jpg

I'll swap when I get a free weekend. :cool:

Nice! How many miles on it ? How much you paid for it, if you don't mind me asking?

I am going in the cylinder head replacement route. found a decent rebuilt head for $600. waiting for the weekend to finish putting it together

[BlackBMWs]

Nice! How many miles on it ? How much you paid for it, if you don't mind me asking?

I am going in the cylinder head replacement route. found a decent rebuilt head for $600. waiting for the weekend to finish putting it together

Higher miles, 192k. $590, which included most all of the accesories, wiring harness, MAF, FW/PP. The PO was a BMW mechanic at Sonoma Raceway. He had just replaced many accessable hoses, Thermostat, WP, VCG, belts, oil & filter before rolling the car. Very clean, (but not cleaned) motor.

Next used engine in the area was $1200 for just the base engine.

I'll replace the Y-pipe at the rear of the head, the water pipe on the drivers side and any other aged hoses. I'll also likely replace the rear main seal, the clutch plate and the shift bushings since it's all out anyway.

Good luck with your reassembly! I'll pull my old one apart to see what actually failed. :cool:

[applefan]

That's a great deal. you going to replace yourself?

[BlackBMWs]

That's a great deal. you going to replace yourself?

Ya, I may have a buddy over for the swap in/out action. I did an M50 swap for my son's E36 325i/auto which was tighter than this M44/manual swap will be. Mainly a time availability thing for me. :cool:

[cooljess76]

+1 on replacing the plastic coolant fittings. You may consider removing and inspecting the waterpump and thermostat as well. Also make sure you bleed the cooling system very thoroughly after install.

[applefan]

+1 on replacing the plastic coolant fittings. You may consider removing and inspecting the waterpump and thermostat as well. Also make sure you bleed the cooling system very thoroughly after install.

Jess or anybody: I didn't start yet, but gathering all the information before starting the work:-
any advise on how to put the timing cover back ? i need to use some kind of adhesive to keep the gasket from falling ?
Oil change before closing the valve cover?
Should I prime the chain tensioner with oil after draining and before putting it back on the block ?

[BlackBMWs]

Jess or anybody: I didn't start yet, but gathering all the information before starting the work:-
any advise on how to put the timing cover back ? i need to use some kind of adhesive to keep the gasket from falling ?
Oil change before closing the valve cover?
Should I prime the chain tensioner with oil after draining and before putting it back on the block ?

Others can chime in.

I fill the oil tensioner before I reinstall it on my other motors. Shorter rattle on startup.

For the timing cover gasket, what about Permatex High tack gasket sealer. spray on the back of the gasket (Block side) and refit cover. :cool:


+1 on replacing the plastic coolant fittings. You may consider removing and inspecting the waterpump and thermostat as well. Also make sure you bleed the cooling system very thoroughly after install.

Thanks Jess! are you referring to the Y fitting on the back of the M44 head and the plastic pipe on the left/drivers side of the block?

http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp105/BlackBMWs/BMW%20318ti/1997%20318ti%20Sport/M44%20engine%20swap/Donor%20engine/f9ba3405.jpghttp://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp105/BlackBMWs/BMW%20318ti/1997%20318ti%20Sport/M44%20engine%20swap/Donor%20engine/f9d06ded.jpg

if so, I do have both to replace as well as every cooling and heater hose. I put the engine on a stand this evening and tomorrow I'll see if I can replace the coolant pipe without removing the intake manifold. I don't know how folks replace the rear Y fiting with the engine installed. I'd need a 5 years old's hands for the clearance.
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp105/BlackBMWs/BMW%20318ti/1997%20318ti%20Sport/M44%20engine%20swap/Donor%20engine/d76cd167.jpg

I think I can get to the retaining bolts if I just remove the alternator. I'll be pulling the new water pump off the failed engine and swapping to the donor as the PO did not replace the WP in the last 40k. The new WP has less than 200 miles on it. The PO replaced the thermostat in the last 10k miles. I have a new one if the other is suspect.

Since I have it out, I'll replace the clutch/pressure plate as they are original, TOB and pilot bushing. The rear seal is not leaking, but after 192k, I'll replace it. I'll look back at shifter replacements. I forget which one folks have swapped to for the M44 for a shorter throw. I'll check the shifter bushings and linkage to renew them. Guibo and CSB gets checked as well.

I'll be definately ensure this one is bled well. I don't mind one engine swap... Two would definately piss me off. :rolleyes:

Thanks for your tips! :cool:

[BlackBMWs]

Preping to pull the failed motor tomorrow. Checked compression to confirm damage. 90PSI on cyls 1/2 120PSI on cyls 3/4.

I plan to drop the replacement engine in next weekend after installing renewing parts. :cool:

[RedTRex]

I just had the same problem on my sons 97 328i - ended up having cracks just like your head by 2 cyls though (2 and 4). My local machine is superb, they were able to weld the cracks plus plane it, pressure check, cut the valves, and new seals for $600. I pulled the cams but left the valves in.

[applefan]

I just had the same problem on my sons 97 328i - ended up having cracks just like your head by 2 cyls though (2 and 4). My local machine is superb, they were able to weld the cracks plus plane it, pressure check, cut the valves, and new seals for $600. I pulled the cams but left the valves in.

That's cool. Didn't know it was repairable. Did you put everything together and tried the first start yet ?

I've done everything except the exhaust manifold.
Still fighting and struggling to align it to the head. somehow the exhaust manifold went to the left ( rear of the car) by an inch. Tried to pull to the right, with no luck so far. trying to see if I can get it done with out unbolting the exhaust pipes from the bottom

[BlackBMWs]

That's cool. Didn't know it was repairable. Did you put everything together and tried the first start yet ?

I've done everything except the exhaust manifold.
Still fighting and struggling to align it to the head. somehow the exhaust manifold went to the left ( rear of the car) by an inch. Tried to pull to the right, with no luck so far. trying to see if I can get it done with out unbolting the exhaust pipes from the bottom

I hate when that happens. If it dosent line up and you're at wits end, unbolt it at the next fitting down, fit it to the head, then reattach the header to the rest of the exhaust. Prolly would be faster and less frustrating if you can't line it up. :cool:

[applefan]

I hate when that happens. If it dosent line up and you're at wits end, unbolt it at the next fitting down, fit it to the head, then reattach the header to the rest of the exhaust. Prolly would be faster and less frustrating if you can't line it up. :cool:

Thanks! I think that's the best bet. head gasket kit I bought has the gasket for the next connection down. So it looks like it meant to be done that way. Just hate to go under the car, so was trying to take a shortcut

[98318ti]

If it's anything like my shortcuts it will take a lot longer than just deciding to do it right now. I remember when putting my motor back in I didn't want to take down the drive shaft when I was reinstalling the motor and tranny together. Well, to make a long story short I ended up fighting for over an hour trying to get everything lined up properly and ended up taking the driveshaft down anyway.

[BlackBMWs]

Ya, most "shortcuts" take longer or have less quality results...

[applefan]

i was able to put the exhaust manifold back, finally. did an oil change, bled coolant.
Tried the first start, I thought Car almost started. but it died. tried to start again, it turns over, but doesn't start.

checked error code, it has just one error code 6C, that's it.
"6C" - battery disconnected.

Any ideas?

[BlackBMWs]

i was able to put the exhaust manifold back, finally. did an oil change, bled coolant.
Tried the first start, I thought Car almost started. but it died. tried to start again, it turns over, but doesn't start.

checked error code, it has just one error code 6C, that's it.
"6C" - battery disconnected.

Any ideas?

Ground cable reattached? You probably did already, but go back and check every connection to ensure all are attached. I should be firing mine back up tomorrow evening. Also, is the battery fully charged?

Good luck! :cool:

[applefan]

Ground cable reattached? You probably did already, but go back and check every connection to ensure all are attached. I should be firing mine back up tomorrow evening. Also, is the battery fully charged?

Good luck! :cool:

Good luck with your Engine swap tonight!!

Ground cable reattached? is it the one that goes on the last bolt on the lower intake manifold? that's attached for sure.
checked every other connector and they are good.

here is a video of how it sounds when I try to start
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3XiQj8ytfY

[applefan]

I am not ruling out the possibility of a motor timing issue, but i double, triple checked timing with the camshaft and crank shaft locks and by rotating the engine and checking the timing again with the locking tools and chain sprocket arrow position

[applefan]

pulled spark plug out from the engine to see if the cylinders were flodded with gas.
Look what I found on plug#3
btw, this is what I got after timing the motor with the cam shaft and crank locking tools. Using the same old spark plugs
Should I take the head back to where I bought from ?

[BlackBMWs]

I see the debris. What is it?

[applefan]

I see the debris. What is it?

Valve hit the spark plug..... Only on Cyl #3 though

How did the engine swap go for you?

[BlackBMWs]

Valve hit the spark plug..... Only on Cyl #3 though

How did the engine swap go for you?

All in, works great! I do have one intermittent code, a P0445, I'll sort out.

Moved on to brake updates now.

Man, It frustrates me as well that you're having to go through this. ( I feel for you... ) How is it possible that the valve hit the plug? is it possible that a nut or washer fell in and that's what's hitting? Do you have a magnetic retrieval tool to check? :cool:

Update: if you can't find a small enough retrieval tool, JB weld a small magnet on a length of #8 solid wire. Rough up the end of the wire so the JB has some texture to grip to. It can be bent slightly to check around the perimeter of the cylinder if the piston is down far enough.

Ultimate would be to use one of those fiber optic cameras that you can insert into the cylinder to look around. Any of the rent-a-tool places rent one?

Is the compression different on cyl 3 as compared to the other cyls?

[applefan]

All in, works great! I do have one intermittent code, a P0445, I'll sort out.

Moved on to brake updates now.

Man, It frustrates me as well that you're having to go through this. ( I feel for you... ) How is it possible that the valve hit the plug? is it possible that a nut or washer fell in and that's what's hitting? Do you have a magnetic retrieval tool to check? :cool:

Update: if you can't find a small enough retrieval tool, JB weld a small magnet on a length of #8 solid wire. Rough up the end of the wire so the JB has some texture to grip to. It can be bent slightly to check around the perimeter of the cylinder if the piston is down far enough.

Ultimate would be to use one of those fiber optic cameras that you can insert into the cylinder to look around. Any of the rent-a-tool places rent one?

Is the compression different on cyl 3 as compared to the other cyls?

At least Good to hear that your engine swap went well!! and Thanks for the moral support on my project ( yes I need it :) )


was troubleshooting the no start issue for weeks, yes it was very frustrating, checked/tested all kind of sensors etc.
Never suspected the head as it was all looking nice and shiny. I didn't drop anything in the cylinder, absolutely positive about that. took my time when the rebuilt head was installed, timed and torque'd as per the spec.

Don't think this head is any good anymore. I had a hard time pulling the spark plug out of cyl#3 , am pretty sure the head may have stripped thread and even may have crack from the valve hit. going to pull the head out of the block and going to take it back to where I bought from

Still wondering what may have caused it. is it possible that the place this head was rebuilt may have used a wrong or bad cam shaft or didn't adjust the valve correctly? what are the possibilities?

[BlackBMWs]

Pause for a moment and see if our friends here can lend some other insight before you tear it apart again.

Sorry if I missed this, did the shop install the cams or did you? I was looking at the pic of your old head and was trying to imagine how the valve could be striking the plug? Bent valve, missing guides? I'd think it would be making a huge racket if either were the case.

When I was rebuilding my M62TU, I had a friend over who dropped one of my shop lights over my exposed drivers side valve train and cams. I thought "o-sh!t" if the glass would have broken, I would have been screwed. I am really careful around exposed components where I don't want debris and now keep a perimeter around those components where I have friends who are all thumbs and playing around. (he's banned anywhere near open engine components now...)

So what I'm getting to, is, is it possible that aside from yourself doing it, is there any way that there could there be debris in the cylinder?

Just something I'd confirm. I don't know where you are in L.A., but there are more than a few sharp forum members down there. :cool:

[applefan]

shop did everything with the new rebuilt head. This head is a completely different one, no parts from the original cracked head were reused. the shop I bough from, may have picked it up from the junk yard and may have done a valve job and/or installed new cam shafts etc( don't know how they rebuilt this head)

another thing noticed, when closing the valve cover, could only torque, 2 or 3 bolts to 10NM, rest were all stripped. one didn't even have thread on it. so looks like this head comes from somebody who abused it. i didn't touch anything else, so don't know whats cooking inside it

as far as getting debris in- no chance at all. I cleaned the cylinders with 125PSi compressed air, before installing the head. once the head was put on, spark plugs were installed right away, in order to prevent any debris from getting in

[applefan]

here are some pics of the head , just before the installation.
Does the cam lobes look right at the locked position ?

[BlackBMWs]

here are some pics of the head , just before the installation.
Does the cam lobes look right at the locked position ?

Haven't timed a M44, but don't the lobes for Cyl 1 typically both face up when locked at TDC? Can't see for sure in the photo, I assume they are. :cool:

[applefan]

Haven't timed a M44, but don't the lobes for Cyl 1 typically both face up when locked at TDC? Can't see for sure in the photo, I assume they are. :cool:

yes they are facing each other for cyl1,
lobes of other cylinders are not and the orientations are entirely different also.

I don't have a picture of the old head locked with the timing tool to compare