DASC Q?!

[marko]

hello.. got a quick question/concern for all with DASC set up knowledge.

I'm thinking of getting the 'performance' version of the B.E.E. re-manufactured motor, upon the (quickly approaching) death of my current (DASC-ed) mill.
http://www.bavengine.com/bavarian_cnc.html

I think I read somewhere on this site that the DASC is set up for OEM engine specs & that 'if you bigger with displacement and/or head port/polish' you may actually loose power as, again, the blower is optimized only for factory specs(??).
The guy from B.E.E. stated 'the improved flow will only benefit the overall picture (w/DASC) since the B.E.E. performance motor is designed to operate in harmony with OEM ECU / software'.
Seems like it makes sense, but then again he is the seller - so here are my qustions:

-is this first statement (318ti.org) correct & will I actually lose HP/torque if I mount my DASC onto an engine with ported/polished head??
OR
-will the increased airflow actually IMPROVE the HP/torque, as it would with the NA mill??

I'd hate spend extra 2K for nothing... LOL :tongue:
All opinions welcome!

[mohaughn]

If you want a performance engine I would not deal with bavarian auto exchange. A lot of people on BFC have had issues with them and they will not guarantee that you see an increase as high as they state on their webpage. Try to get them to send you a dyno chart for the engine you will be buying.

You would be much better off working with Metric Mechanic as they are highly respected in terms of building high performance BMW motors.

[marko]

I will check them out, for sure... thx! www.MetricMechanic.com, right?

anyway, the ported/polished thing was supposed to be just an icing on the cake really. I would have no probs just going for their 'regular' re-manufactured mill.

I just wanted opinions on ported/polished vs. OEM as it relates to DASC powergain/loss... I'd assume the 'formula' would apply to M.M. motors too.

If you want a performance engine I would not deal with bavarian auto exchange. A lot of people on BFC have had issues with them and they will not guarantee that you see an increase as high as they state on their webpage. Try to get them to send you a dyno chart for the engine you will be buying.

You would be much better off working with Metric Mechanic as they are highly respected in terms of building high performance BMW motors.

[Panzer_M]

Bav Exchange is a rip..totally over-priced.

MM is pricey too...but out of the two I would go with MM

Really though any good shop can rebuild a engine. BMW motors are not Ferrari motors. Just a basic german engine.

Once you get past the badge, you realize things are a complex as they seem.

[BleMW]

Bav Exchange is a rip..totally over-priced.

MM is pricey too...but out of the two I would go with MM

Really though any good shop can rebuild a engine. BMW motors are not Ferrari motors. Just a basic german engine.

Once you get past the badge, you realize things are a complex as they seem.

i agree.. these aren't that hard.
just need some general mech knowledge and common sense

[mohaughn]

You can have anybody port and polish and engine but only people that are very skilled with the use of a flow bench will be able to do it properly and make good gains. I would also think that to make a motor driveable for street conditions if you go to the extent of porting/polishing you should have it retuned as you could kill low end torque by opening it up to much.

For what you are doing I would just find a low mileage motor and have it overhauled. Maybe have the head removed and leveled/decked. If you want to stay with the stock ECU porting/polishing and changing other internals is not the right way to go. You could probably get your motor overhauled for the same amount or less.

For what MM is doing I don't think their motors are overpriced. You just have to want what they are selling as they are doing a lot more than just a port and polish. But Panzer is correct. Any good mechanic should be able to do a basic overhaul/rebuild up to the standards that bavauto exchange is doing.

[marko]

B.E.E. has a 'rebuild' kit, and it is $2,450... & it includes the all of below attached...

wonder how much can the labor run for a job like that (disassembly / machine work / re-assembly + dasc), since, I think it is safe to say I would not be taking out / putting in the motor myself?

[96cali]

I just looked at the Metric Mechanic engines the other day. Isn't a 170 hp rated M44 around $6800? Their 200hp+ supercharged (superchargable?) engines are over $7000. Made me wonder exactly how many they have built since these cars came down in value. Maybe when ours were $20 grand it made sense but you can get a whole car for that or a certified S52 even. Is their price list out of date?

M42 & M44 Engine Prices
M42: E30 (90-91), E36 (92-95), Z3 ‘95
M44: E36/5 318ti (96-98)
E36 318i (96-98) Z3 96-98
2000 Sport M42.......... 160 HP.........$6,495.... 800
2100 Sport M44.......... 170 HP.........$6,795...1200
2100 Rally M42........... 205 HP.........$8,495.... 800
FORCED INDUCTION
1900 FI M42.............. 225 HP.........$6,995.... 800
2000 FI M44.............. 225 HP.........$7,295...1200
2100 FI M42.............. 300 HP.........$8,995.... 800

[zboot]

Not really. Think about it, how much would you pay for a 1995 clubsport in essentially brand new condition with only 1000 miles because some dealer hid it in a dark dark basement and only drove it once a month to keep things running and to take it to be serviced/looked over?

[marko]

I spend close to an hour talking to the guy @ MM today.. he talked me through the whole thing and this is what I was told:

ship the car to MO - $500
M44 forced induction motor - $7300
installation (w/ cleaning & making the eng bay look NEW) - $1200
tunning of ECU 350
lightened flywheel (11 lbs) + 228 (something or other) clutch package - $750
TOTAL (for one bulletproof engine fully sorted) $10,100
Time needed from when they pick your car up - till you get to drive off: 2 weeks.
Horsepower (aproximatelly / ball park) 260 at the crank
warranty - prorated

now, they are very expensive, but they sound like they really know what they are talking about.
If I had the money (& at that point have made up my mind to keep the car FOREVER), I would feel much more comfortable forking over that kind of cash to them - rather that buying a 7400 dollar 'performance' motor from Bav Eng Exc & then looking for someone local to install it (+ $ for new clutch / flywheel + misc.).

I dont know... its a reach for me now, but again, I was seriously impressed by their product & the way they would go about the whole thing. I guess, if I ever decide NOT to part with my car & pass on buying a new one for another 5 to 10 years, I guess I could see myself jumping on it.

Incidentally, the guy I spoke to has a 2.2 liter M42 motor with a turbo (14 psi of boost) & was dyno-ed @ 380 HP (!!!).:eek:

so, I'll start playing lotery tommorow... :biggrin:



I just looked at the Metric Mechanic engines the other day. Isn't a 170 hp rated M44 around $6800? Their 200hp+ supercharged (superchargable?) engines are over $7000. Made me wonder exactly how many they have built since these cars came down in value. Maybe when ours were $20 grand it made sense but you can get a whole car for that or a certified S52 even. Is their price list out of date?

M42 & M44 Engine Prices
M42: E30 (90-91), E36 (92-95), Z3 ‘95
M44: E36/5 318ti (96-98)
E36 318i (96-98) Z3 96-98
2000 Sport M42.......... 160 HP.........$6,495.... 800
2100 Sport M44.......... 170 HP.........$6,795...1200
2100 Rally M42........... 205 HP.........$8,495.... 800
FORCED INDUCTION
1900 FI M42.............. 225 HP.........$6,995.... 800
2000 FI M44.............. 225 HP.........$7,295...1200
2100 FI M42.............. 300 HP.........$8,995.... 800

[roadrash]

I've read the story of one guy who took his car to them. I think it's on another forum somewhere, but not bimmerforums. The thing that impressed me is that the guy broke down on his way to MO and one of the MM guys drove several hundred miles, picked up the guy and his car, and took them to MO. I was pretty impressed with that sort of customer service.

If you can find that thread, there's lots of other info about the shop and their work.

[marko]

I hear that... I was totaly impresed by them, just by talking to the guy about the whole thing. Much more knowledgable than the Bavarian BS, too.

I've read the story of one guy who took his car to them. I think it's on another forum somewhere, but not bimmerforums. The thing that impressed me is that the guy broke down on his way to MO and one of the MM guys drove several hundred miles, picked up the guy and his car, and took them to MO. I was pretty impressed with that sort of customer service.

If you can find that thread, there's lots of other info about the shop and their work.

[mohaughn]

I just looked at the Metric Mechanic engines the other day. Isn't a 170 hp rated M44 around $6800? Their 200hp+ supercharged (superchargable?) engines are over $7000. Made me wonder exactly how many they have built since these cars came down in value. Maybe when ours were $20 grand it made sense but you can get a whole car for that or a certified S52 even. Is their price list out of date?

M42 & M44 Engine Prices
M42: E30 (90-91), E36 (92-95), Z3 ‘95
M44: E36/5 318ti (96-98)
E36 318i (96-98) Z3 96-98
2000 Sport M42.......... 160 HP.........$6,495.... 800
2100 Sport M44.......... 170 HP.........$6,795...1200
2100 Rally M42........... 205 HP.........$8,495.... 800
FORCED INDUCTION
1900 FI M42.............. 225 HP.........$6,995.... 800
2000 FI M44.............. 225 HP.........$7,295...1200
2100 FI M42.............. 300 HP.........$8,995.... 800


The Rally motor is basically a full blown race motor that is detuned. If you wanted to run that motor at a much higher redline, say 9k RPMs you could. They would not warranty it at that redline. But if you are racing, and you can afford a new motor or two a season you expect that kind of thing. Given the price of a race ready I6 these prices are right in line. Look at what sunbelt or Vac charges for a S54 race motor.

Just to give you an idea, the cores are hand selected and all inspected to make sure that there are absolutely no cracks. Everything is clean down to absolute bare metal. Then they spend the time to port/polish the head properly. Just about every single internal engine component is made lighter and stronger. Then the same thing is done to the block. Add to that improved oil flow throughout the engine, a better oil baffle to prevent fuel starvation, as well as custom tuning by EAC you are getting a lot more than a new stock BMW motor. Expensive? Yes. Worth it? Depends on why you are getting it. Compared to what other people are charging for rebuilt warrantied engines I think these prices are somewhat in line. You can of course change what you don't think you need and make the entire engine cheaper. But they are going to sell you an engine that will be bulletproof if that is what you pay for.

I think when I was talking to them, before I decided to run my motor until it dies, they told me something like 10k for a NA m42 putting down over 200HP. And with the possibility to rev it up to 13k RPMs in a misshift and not money $hift the engine. I think that was solid lifters and some other add ons like oil cooler, etc... It would be great to smoke a stock e36 m3 and then show them your NA M42 that just blew them away...

For a street cat I would just buy a newer car, and SC it. But these are really good racing motors.

[96cali]

These guys def do sound absolutely geekish on their knowledge of this approach. I love it.

But I still wonder who if anyone is buying these motors when the cars using M44's are all well below $10000. Track fiends? Sponsored racers? How many have they ACTUALLY built and sold? How could $10,100 for 260 crank hp ever be desired over over an S52 swap for half the cost? And don't forget power is power whether you get it from a 4 or a 6. Any of these options will necessitate a new diff or complete rear end plus upgraded brakes all around. That 10,100 amount is now around $12,000 minimum.

And this is not like finding a clubsport in a barn with 100 miles. You still have a 9 yo car when you're done, albeit one that can go another 9.

[marko]

it seems they've done a lot of them.. mostly E30s, though. Nonetheless, I find it appealing (however unaffordable) to have a kick ass - totally tuned, tweaked, massaged & blown M44 in a 318ti, rather than a swaped S52.
Mind you, I'm not stating it is better than a swap, all I'm saying is that I like more the idea of being able to say 'yes it is a dinky M44 4-banger, with 260 crank HP (!)'. :biggrin:
Something very 'purist' about it, I guess... :smile:

+ the whole set up is much lighter...


These guys def do sound absolutely geekish on their knowledge of this approach. I love it.

But I still wonder who if anyone is buying these motors when the cars using M44's are all well below $10000. Track fiends? Sponsored racers? How many have they ACTUALLY built and sold? How could $10,100 for 260 crank hp ever be desired over over an S52 swap for half the cost? And don't forget power is power whether you get it from a 4 or a 6. Any of these options will necessitate a new diff or complete rear end plus upgraded brakes all around. That 10,100 amount is now around $12,000 minimum.

And this is not like finding a clubsport in a barn with 100 miles. You still have a 9 yo car when you're done, albeit one that can go another 9.

[96cali]

I hear you. I like the M44 because you'd get to keep ASC more easily too. I like the MM option but think i could never justify it. Hmmm... wonder if they have christmas sales or coupons in the Sunday newspaper... :_paper:

it seems they've done a lot of them.. mostly E30s, though. Nonetheless, I find it appealing (however unaffordable) to have a kick ass - totally tuned, tweaked, massaged & blown M44 in a 318ti, rather than a swaped S52.
Mind you, I'm not stating it is better than a swap, all I'm saying is that I like more the idea of being able to say 'yes it is a dinky M44 4-banger, with 260 crank HP (!)'. :biggrin:
Something very 'purist' about it, I guess... :smile:

+ the whole set up is much lighter...

[mohaughn]

But I still wonder who if anyone is buying these motors when the cars using M44's are all well below $10000. Track fiends? Sponsored racers? How many have they ACTUALLY built and sold? How could $10,100 for 260 crank hp ever be desired over over an S52 swap for half the cost? And don't forget power is power whether you get it from a 4 or a 6. Any of these options will necessitate a new diff or complete rear end plus upgraded brakes all around. That 10,100 amount is now around $12,000 minimum.


People in club racing, NASA, SCCA, etc.. in the modified class or comparable cars will spend this kind of money if not a lot more for a motor. In a lot of cases it may come down to displacement. A 3.2l I6 may change your minimum weight requirement vs a 2.2l 4 banger. I've seen his engines in older BMWs. I think they just started messing with the newer engines. But they have a lot of experience with the m42.

I don't think they are necessarily professional teams or even sponsored. People that race in club style racing put out a lot of money into their cars.

[aceyx]

I don't think they are necessarily professional teams or even sponsored. People that race in club style racing put out a lot of money into their cars.
E.g. $85k race-only car (http://www.diasio.com/)

[marko]

hahahahaha!

I'm gonna start doing 'scratch-offs'.. you know the ones that cost like a buck or two & the max payoff is 5-7K.. or just Pick 4. :biggrin:

Hmmm... wonder if they have christmas sales or coupons in the Sunday newspaper... :_paper: